Any experiences with buying OLDER wines at auction sites...

... or stores?

Most older wines I've purchased so far have been through a handful of wine stores/sites that have a decent reputation and or specialize more in what I particularly buy (champagnes). Haven't had any real bad experiences/cooked wines (that I know of) as a result of "casually" buying from these places. My common sense likes to think that anyplace I choose to buy from would normally keep their wines stored in a decently controlled temperature environment but of course I have no way of knowing this for sure. Of course I could just e-mail each site/store and ask but Im not too crazy about playing "20 questions" with various wine stores. Besides, I imagine every place would claim their wines are stored safely, but heck I still would never know...

So I guess I'm asking what kind of experiences any of you have had in buying (mainly older vintage) wines by mail or by auction as well? How can one be sure that bottle of 1982 Salon you're buying/bidding on hasn't been under a heated window sill in somebody's basement for 20 years before the store/auction got a hold of it? As it is, the cost of many older wines gets rather steep but the money wouldn't really be so big a concern as long as you knew you were at least getting a decently stored bottle. Of course any bottle can vary and since each bottle is a living thing I understand there is no guarantee, even with a perfectly stored bottle, that I will immensely enjoy it. But I wouldn't mind taking a chance on some older bottles now and then so long as I know they aren't cooked or damaged physically.


I've used wine-searcher to browse around for particular bottles. Some older wines that I wouldn't mind buying are often listed on there but can I trust buying from these places that pop up (generally speaking)? Is there a particular site/online auction that you recommend which offer lots of older vintages and that is trustworthy as far as how their wines have been stored/handled?

I know I'm somewhat a victim of my own pleasure since Champagne is typically more sensitive to storage as well but I didn't think it would hurt to ask...

I appreciate any comments

Yours Truly,

Jeff

Jeff
Generally good experiences at auction - the dud's have probably not been down to adverse storage - just decrepid wines.

That said, the more expensive the wine, the more care and concern you should have.

Reputatable Auction Houses also have their name to consider, so feel free to ask them for provenence of the wine and if not stated, the condition of bottle (for me that's mostly the ullage, but other obvious factors should be advised, e.g. badly bin-soiled labels or signs of seepage). If after asking this, a bottle arrives at bottom shoulder and they'd advised upper shoulder, then you ought to challenge back to them. If a lot is discovered to be heat damaged, then do report back to them. They may or may not do anything, but in terms of what the wine itself is like, I presume it is 'buyer beware'. At least with wine shops you'll have the normal sale of goods legislation, though this can have varying levels of cover for perishables such as fine wine.

This is one reason why it's ideal to attend the auction yourself (i.e. get to know your local auction sites). Being able to view the bottles and judge for yourself is a benefit that internet/email/phone bidders don't have. In addition it allows you to be aware of any late additions and to judge the ambitions of the others in the room. Sometimes you can let someone bag the 1st lot of 6 for a highish price, then pick up the remainder at a cheaper price - assuming the 1st bidder doesn't exercise the option to buy all 6. Also, it ensures your bid doesn't come in well above the next highest (something auction houses are occasionally alleged to do with absentee bids). The other good reason is they can be interesting and fun. The more provincial the auction, the more amusing/interesting the characters - or so it seems.

Of course things may well differ in the states - this is a UK perspective from someone who occasionally dabbles.

regards

Ian

A few semi-random thoughts:
1) Even if buying from someone who bought on release, there's no guarantee. If you totally trust the person, still no guarantee it wasn't cooked in transit, etc
2) I think risks are worse on things that have been readily traded. I think things like '85 Lynch Bages which was a WS Wine of the Year might be more likely to have been bought by someone who didn't really think about storage, than say the excellent '79 du Tertre or Giscours.
3) Recognizing these issues, I bid less (counting all fees) on say Winebid vs established auction houses like HDH.Zachys, Christies.

Thanks for the advice. As I thought it pretty much sounds like a "cross your fingers and hope for the best" kind of thing...

Jeff

[Jenise]

Jeff,

I'm also a dabbler and overall have had very good luck buying this way (or I wouldn't keep doing it). Though yes I've had a few duds, they've been very few and at about the same dud rate I experience with wines I've purchased new through regular retail and stored myself. I can maybe count on one hand the number of bottles that were readily identifiable as most likely from bad storage; and considering the fact that I'm typically buying mature bottles for the at or below the cost of new-releases I generally consider myself well ahead of the game. The only real precaution I've ever taken besides not buying bottles with signs of past seepage has been to sit out the year after Katrina because I was worried about there being a boatload of cooked bottles on the market peddled by salvage experts who bought them for a quick turnover. Read Bill Spohn's most recent post with Pontet Canet in the title: that '78 PC was my bottle, and a relatively recent auction purchase. Obviously, no damage there.

After years of doing this, I've concluded that by and large the kind of person who buys and hangs onto the kinds of wine I'm interested in took good care of their collection. Along the lines of what Dale said, one probably runs a lot less risk buying old Bordeaux or Champagne than Opus Ones which might have been acquired through an employee discount and stored passively in the closet of a hot apartment in San Bernardino for years. A friend of mine was/did exactly that, and she sold her wine at auction. Pity the buyer!

Jenise

I realize you're probably not talking about buying luxury wines at the top of the market. Even so, reading about the antics of Hardy Rodenstock, and the way he fooled people like Robert Parker and Jancis Robinson, ought to give one pause. I know it gives me pause.

Here's the link:

The Jefferson Bottles.

Jeff,

Along the lines of what Dale said, one probably runs a lot less risk buying old Bordeaux or Champagne than Opus Ones which might have been acquired through an employee discount and stored passively in the closet of a hot apartment in San Bernardino for years. A friend of mine was/did exactly that, and she sold her wine at auction. Pity the buyer!

Jenise

That would be the kind of case (pun intended) that makes me hesitate just a bit (as a buyer). I'm just skeptical sometimes about where these online stores/auctions recieved their bottles from - you just never how they were treated before they got into their hands. As you mentioned, I'm sure most are typically fine but you just never know. That's definitely the good part in just buying newer releases from a reputable store. Not that you can't still cook a wine in a short period of time but at least you know they came from the wine's home origin fairly recently so it's less of a storage concern.

One small solution that I've managed to come up with since I have more of an old fashioned "English taste" (the older/nuttier/more amber-gold,the better) is that I often will buy recently disgorged releases when I can (and can afford to do so...). Recently purchased a Bollinger R.D. 1995 and currently have a couple Dom Perignon Oenotheque's in my cellar. The prior experiences Ive had with similair recently disgorged bottles were all good, both from a condition and more importantly taste point of view. They aren't cheap but at least I have the peace of mind that the bottle was (I hope) resting safely in the ideal underground limestone cellars of the house very recently before it was shipped and then got to me. Especially if I just noticed it all of a sudden in the store's inventory/catalog. Plus, I LOVE the extra aging anyways. I actually think Champagne should regulate that every bottle (yes even the NV) MUST stay on its lees at least 10 ten years prior to release. Just kidding (I mean I'm not kidding but I know such as a thing isnt practical...) Oh well, I will have to keep hunting down the good bottles and enjoying the journey...

Yours Truly,

Jeff

I buy quite a bit from Winebid.com and Hart Davis Hart and have been generally quite pleased with the results. You definitely have to know your price points when buying, or you may not get the deal you hoped for. And I agree that these businesses, as businesses, have to be careful about what they put out there for sale or risk the backlash if they are shlepping bad wine.

For me, though, who got into wine relatively late in life, if I I want to get a chance to try older vintages of bordeaux or Monte Bello or Montelena, then this is about the only way that is going to happen. And compared to current pricing of many wines, the differences are often quite small. I've bought lots of older Leoville Barton and La Mission Haut Brion (big thanx to Jenise for getting me into this wine) from neglected vintages at prices way below what most recent vintages have sold for. And I just recently received the 1994 Phelps Insignia at roughly the same price as the 2005, and the 94 I can drink next week. Not that any of us care about points, but both these received about the same score, 95+, from you know who.

I've also bought lots of low-end wines, especially from Winebid. I mean those in the $20-35 range....and some great great bargains and terrific older vintage there too. But I'm not revealing which!!!

if I I want to get a chance to try older vintages of bordeaux or Monte Bello or Montelena, then this is about the only way that is going to happen.

That's what I figure as well. I'll have to take a look at Winebid as well. Don't believe I've ever checked out their site before (unless it was through casual browsing and I forgot..)

Jeff

if I I want to get a chance to try older vintages of bordeaux or Monte Bello or Montelena, then this is about the only way that is going to happen.

That's what I figure as well. I'll have to take a look at Winebid as well. Don't believe I've ever checked out their site before (unless it was through casual browsing and I forgot..)

Jeff

It can add up pretty quickly.. I looked and I have about 4 cases of stuff I bought over the summer that they have held til the weather cools. But it is fun...and as I said, I've had good luck so far.

There are some tricks to be learned about when and how to bid that come from experience.

I've bought several wines via Wine Commune. One from the site itself, and two from private sellers. One from a private cellar was the 1928 Coutet, which I got some friends to split the cost on and we drank it in May - wonderful, once in a lifetime experience. I think you have to use your brain, ask the right questions and scrutinize the information you're given. But on Wine Commune, it seems everyone is honest, and most people are upfront with the condition of the bottles.

I've had pretty good experience buying from Auctions. I've purchased bordeauxs mostly and have ranged from 1966 through to 1988 and no more duds than in general. Most are in pretty good shape as well physically. I had one 1976 mouton that I bought on a whim that was mid shoulder and even that was fine.

I've had VERY mixed results - and most of my older wines are acquired from auction. I've been buying that way for almost 20 years.
In simple terms, you have to 'learn' who to trust. I've used on-line auctions but found them unreliable. I'll only bid to maybe 50% of what I'd bid at a commercial auction house. Charity auctions are a minefield. Again, only if its really cheap or an indestructible wine - in my experience people dump wines at those that a commercial auction house won't acccept.
The Commercial houses are much better - particularly as they (mostly) stand behind the product. I've rarely been disappointed with Christie's, Phillips and Bonhams/Butterfields. But a couple of Commercial places have 'severely disappointed' me.
My rule now is to attend an auction in person and see how it runs (could bid if things look good). Depending on what I see, I'll then trust them with absentee bids.
The key (for me) is that somebody who is qualified to assess the 'quality' of the wine being offered stands between me and the seller. Yes, we can always get a bad bottle (no way of predicting whether it's corked - but I've had corked wine direct from a chateau as well).
The other danger, when attending live, is that you can get caught up in the moment and bid more than intended. Hence my preference to bid as an absentee, where you fix your maximum price (assuming you've already checked how the place handles absentee bids by attending in person).
As always, buyer beware - both of the goods and also the auction house. One auction house has been 'unable to find' a lot I won at a great price so refunded my money. The same house, on a 13-bottle lot, gave me a case plus a single bottle carton. I nevertheless opened the case and discovered only 11 bottles - the missing bottle was the 'prize' selection of the lot - and amazingly they were able to locate it in under 10 minutes. Needless to say I don't bid there anymore (although, more recently, I did check out one of their live auctions - it is possible for changed management to affect practices).

[Jenise]

That would be the kind of case (pun intended) that makes me hesitate just a bit (as a buyer). I'm just skeptical sometimes about where these online stores/auctions recieved their bottles from - you just never how they were treated before they got into their hands.

No, you don't. Just as when you buy a wine from a retailer, you can't be certain of how it was stored during the chain of custody it lived through getting to you. However, WineBid, just to name one, does list the storage conditions as they knew them, and my friend was dead honest when she listed her wines as "removed from passive storage". (Which admission apparently didn't dampen the ardor of the type of dunderhead who buys these big label wines--she did very well in the sale.) Another thing that Winebid does which helps with quality assurance is not accept collections with a value less than some reasonably sizable number, like two or three thousand dollars--at the very least it prevents the handyman who just stole that bottle of 96 Dom from the guy down the street from being able to unload it via this means.

Another thing that Winebid does which helps with quality assurance is not accept collections with a value less than some reasonably sizable number, like two or three thousand dollars--at the very least it prevents the handyman who just stole that bottle of 96 Dom from the guy down the street from being able to unload it via this means.

Well in regards to the 96 Dom I'm actually safe. I was thinking ahead and bought 3 of them at my local wine/deli store about 2 years ago just shortly when they were released onto the market. They are quietly sitting in my cellar, all in the foot long boxes with the sticker seal still unbroken. I was able to get all three for just $110 each which, at the time of course always seems expensive, particularly for just newly released wines. But, like they say, life is short so I treated myself and splurged. Now I notice (due to the reputation that the 96's have) that its hard to get a hold of one for less than $250-300. So I think I made a wise investment after all. Of course, I didn't buy them for that reason. I definitely buy the bubbles for pure pleasure. The problem is always waiting. For this wine I'm thinking of holding off until about the year 2025 and then sampling one. LOL On second thought, as I stated above, life is short. There's no guarantee tomorrow will come so in all likliehood at least one of the three corks will get popped well before that time...

But, in all seriousness, thanks for the winebid info. I'm glad to hear they do set some sort of minimum value to prevent the stray bottle being sold like you mentioned. I think I'll poke around on their site sometime and check them out at least.

Jeff