Questions of taste and consistency

How is this, Jenise?

I experienced that a certain Bordeaux tasted wonderful in a restaurant. Bought a case and it didn’t taste nearly as good at home. Then brought a bottle of it to another restaurant, and it tasted wonderful again. I am thinking that it might be smells more than anything else that contributes to the “ambience factor” in drinking a wine. For example, when a man feels that a wine tastes better in the presence of a lady he likes, it might be the aroma of the lady more than the mood that changes the pleasure of the wine. And the more complex the ambient aromas, the more the enhancement. I am surmising this because the Bordeaux in question didn’t taste a lot better when cooking at home. And the second restaurant did not have any kind of ambience that was particularly interesting or pleasant. It was essentially a dull country restaurant, albeit with a reasonably accomplished cook, but there were a lot of people dining on a variety of food preparations.

Salmon consistency is a second dynamic I considered in the same general timeframe. The salmon in that particular country restaurant was overcooked to a connoisseur’s standard. At a New York, or San Francisco, or Parisian restaurant, the inside of a filet of salmon would be al dente, tender and moist. In a country restaurant, and in most restaurants outside of cosmopolitan areas, salmon will be cooked hard. Why? Why does sophistication lead to liking salmon al dente?

My wife says that people outside of moneyed areas don’t have leisure time enough to pay attention to delicate cooking. She said the cook would be chasing after children, or yelling at them, during the fifteen second interval that would have to be observed to get salmon perfect. It is much easier to shoot for the five minute interval between "cooked enough" and inedibility. So people get used to the fish served this way, and thus prefer it.

I would be interested in any other opinions about either of these issues. I have my own theories about the second, which I will reserve at the moment.

To the first, yes the setting makes much difference--always.

To the second, there are those of us who tune ourselves finely and those who do not.

To the first, yes the setting makes much difference--always.

To the second, there are those of us who tune ourselves finely and those who do not.

Thanks, Thomas; but I am fine tuning the first question re the effect of ambient aromas exclusively, as opposed to just settings in general, which comprise such aspects as mood and visual charm.

To the first, yes the setting makes much difference--always.

To the second, there are those of us who tune ourselves finely and those who do not.

Thanks, Thomas; but I am fine tuning the first question re the effect of ambient aromas exclusively, as opposed to just settings in general, which comprise such aspects as mood and visual charm.

That's too fine a point (pun intended ).

Ambience refers to the whole experience. How can you separate one element of it? But if you could, it's my view that ambient aroma always affects our perception of smell, and since smell affects taste...

Ambience refers to the whole experience. How can you separate one element of it? But if you could, it's my view that ambient aroma always affects our perception of smell, and since smell affects taste...

That's what I was trying to do: separate it out by way of experimenting with the bottles from the same case, recognizing that there is of course some bottle variation, too. But the difference was so pronounced in the two restaurant environments, compared to the home environment, that I had to wonder if a panoply of interesting ambient smells greatly enhances the taste of wine. People who drink wine with food know this, just maybe do not focus on the olfactory aspect of it, which “taste,” as referred to colloquially, predominately is, of course. So what does this say for the wine? If it is much better mixed with other smells, then we have to consider broadening the crux of the wine experience a little bit further out than just the bottle. Can a Lynch Bages in Le Cirque's kitchen be a better "bottle" than a Latour in our kitchens? Is that why is costs so much more to dine in that kitchen, versus the dining rooms, as much for the sake of the wine experience as for social status and the visual kick to the food?

Ambience refers to the whole experience. How can you separate one element of it? But if you could, it's my view that ambient aroma always affects our perception of smell, and since smell affects taste...

That's what I was trying to do: separate it out by way of experimenting with the bottles from the same case, recognizing that there is of course some bottle variation, too. But the difference was so pronounced in the two restaurant environments, compared to the home environment, that I had to wonder if a panoply of interesting ambient smells greatly enhances the taste of wine. People who drink wine with food know this, just maybe do not focus on the olfactory aspect of it, which “taste,” as referred to colloquially, predominately is, of course. So what does this say for the wine? If it is much better mixed with other smells, then we have to consider broadening the crux of the wine experience a little bit further out than just the bottle. Can a Lynch Bages in Le Cirque's kitchen be a better "bottle" than a Latour in our kitchens? Is that why is costs so much more to dine in that kitchen, versus the dining rooms, as much for the sake of the wine experience as for social status and the visual kick to the food?

Covert,

We have an amazing capacity to fool and manipulate ourselves into believing a variety of things that may or may not be true or certain, and we seem to be best at fooling ourselves when we know more rather than less about the product and the situation that confronts us.

Why does sophistication lead to liking salmon al dente?

From a historical perspective I think this would depend on your definition of 'sophisticated'.

By modern standards, clearly when the salmon (or any fish/meat) is fresh and high quality, the cooking should be absolutely delicate.

But, that has not always been the case and people were 'sophisticated' before refrigeration.

Hey Covert,

Interesting questions.

Re the first about smells...I certainly think effects the taste of the wine. I am wondering if Lynn wears a particular perfume when you dine out? I would think that the smells in each restaurant would differ, so maybe it's something else that is effecting the taste...such as, like you said, dining with a beautiful woman? ie, you know she is beautiful when you dine at home, but when you go out, you know that others think she is beautiful as well, and it makes the experience more enjoyable?

As for the overcooked salmon, I do think it depends on what you are used too. For instance, growing up, we only ate very cooked veggies. Asparagus was just mush. I loved it though. I wasn't actually exposed to al dente asparagus until I meet my husband 10 yrs ago. It took a few tries before it became my preference. Now, I couldn't imagine eating soft asparagus again! It's probably just an exposure thing. I think successful chefs understand this...even if they want to cook the salmon a certain way, if they open a restaurant in a certain area, they need to understand the demographics and how to cook for their clientele. Not all restaurants are going to be "posh posh nouveau cusine."

I'll give another example...a friend of mine opened a restaurant several yrs ago. It was located in somewhat industrial area of NJ. The restaurant was large, and my friend is a very accomplished chef. The food was spectacular...however, the restaurant lasted less than a yr. That's because the people who wanted to eat there, were admins that worked at the surrounding offices...they just wanted a burger for lunch, not a lobster roll that costs $15.00. Restaurants are just as much a business are they are a place to eat. I say that if the place with the "overcooked" (to your taste) salmon was busy and has been around for awhile, the chef/owners are doing something right. My guess is that it's not the chef, but the people frequenting the establishment, that enjoy their fish cooked that way.

[David M. Bueker]

If you are trying to isolate the effect of aromas you will need to do a strict design of experiments where all otehr variable are held constant. That's not very romatic & might in itself cause the wine to show poorly.

so maybe it's something else that is effecting the taste...such as, like you said, dining with a beautiful woman? ie, you know she is beautiful when you dine at home, but when you go out, you know that others think she is beautiful as well, and it makes the experience more enjoyable?

Hi Maria. When I considered what you and David were saying, I thought maybe I was being foolish to even go down this path. If I were to separate out the variables responsible for enhanced wine experience, I could destroy their ability to create the romance.

On Sunday evening I watched a movie called Married Life with Rachel McAdams (she reminds me of you a little), in which an old married geezer who was, by a rare happenstance, dating her, and had won her temporary love, awaited her arrival in a restaurant while he was talking with his friend from childhood, played by Pierce Brosnan. This old guy (played by Chris Cooper) noticed her arrival, of course, while the young woman was still scanning the room for him, standing a couple of steps up from the dining room, as if on a stage. The friend noticed that his friend’s eyes had fixed on something eliciting a beatific expression, naturally causing the friend to look at the object. Pierce’s eyes fell on rachel’s remarkably beautiful face at the instant her eye contact with her lover drew a returned beatific smile of loving familiarity from her, cinematically, and very deftly, creating the magic you describe; spirally enhanced, again, by the Cooper’s recognition of his friend's sudden discovery of the unlikely treasure, if you can follow my spiral. I’m sure Cooper's character's wine tasted okay.

As for the consistency question, I agree with what you said and I was again striving for a metaphysical answer relating to esthetics, which might, if I discovered the answer, make the fish slightly less delectable for me. Why is something pleasanter than something else? The question probably shouldn’t be answered, even if it could be. For me, the answer of whether something is better than something else, going beyond relativity, or opinion, into absolutism, is what people on average prefer directionally over time. For example, more people seem to switch from liking cream in their coffee to liking it black, than go in the opposite direction. So, I would conclude that black coffee is absolutely better than coffee with cream, by the definition of preference migration alone. Likewise, al dente salmon is better than hard cooked salmon. But that’s all I am going to think about it, for now.

[Jenise]

Covert,

Don't hate me, but I must take issue with this: At a New York, or San Francisco, or Parisian restaurant, the inside of a filet of salmon would be al dente, tender and moist. In a country restaurant, and in most restaurants outside of cosmopolitan areas, salmon will be cooked hard. Why? Why does sophistication lead to liking salmon al dente?

You can probably hear this coming, but you're misusing the word 'al dente'. 'Dente' basically means 'dental', and it refers to a toothsome character that is the opposite of 'tender' as we normally mean it in the cooking world. I think you're actually relating 'al dente' to 'slightly undercooked', which is not a correct correlation if you happen to be one who believes that the 'al dente' stage of pasta, for which the term was coined, is perfection and longer cooking results in overcooking.

As for the question of wine and the en place phenomenon, you and I have discussed before the difference between the clinical attributes of a wine and the insufficiency of most tasting notes to describe the way a given wine makes you feel. The first is what's in the bottle. The second is what you bring to the bottle--environment, company, food, and mood. Oh yes, and glassware, let's not forget the importance of putting the wine in the right glass. And perhaps for you the whole experience of going out to dinner elevates your--oh what do we call those little zoomies...oh crap, en-something, OH YES, endorphins--maybe the whole experience of going out to dinner and anticipating that dinner all week long has your endorphin level on a higher plane so that every sensory aspect hits your tongue like water drops dancing on a hot skillet.

...--oh what do we call those little zoomies...oh crap, en-something...

Jenise, I've got to meet you sometime. Love the thought process here Reminds me of my own mind.

Sorry, don't have much to add to the conversation. Of course wine changes with the environment, with food, with the folks you chill with. I think we all know this, even if analytical anysis is lacking. This is kind of like belief in God: it seems you either know something to be true and exist, despite what science and 'facts' prove or disprove, or, you don't. People who haven't caught the winebug with think this is crazy hogwash, but we here 'know' what you brought up is true, but what kind of proof do you need to confirm your belief?

but I must take issue with this:

Jenise, don't turn 60. I have to hear stuff twice before I remember it. You explained al dente to me before, I just forgot. I have been using that term incorrectly for most of my life.

Re the second part. I don't want to beat that to death, because, as I said, I do not want to remove the magic. I just suddenly realized that I was not attributing ambient aromas to the taste of wine nearly as much as I should have been. That's all. I thought the concept was interesting, especially if there were others, who, like me, didn't really focus on that. I had focused on the effect of perfume on the taste of wine, even preferring the smell of it in the room when I was drinking a less-than-great bottle. It makes a big difference. But I had not noticed how much cooking odors changed the taste of wine. I mostly focused on how some cooking smells killed the taste, and never open a great bottle while Lynn is cooking. But restaurant smells for some reason seem to have the opposite effect, at least in a couple of instances for me. But I have indeed beaten this subject to death, and now declare it dead, from my perspective, at least.

[Jenise]

I now declare it dead

Can't let you off the hook so fast.

Too bad you don't drink coffee. In the presence of the heady smell of bacon frying: great coffee tastes greater, and bad coffee tastes good. It is a symbiosis greater than anything I've experienced with wine.

In line with what Jenise pointed out about the term “al dente”. In my household anyway, the term is used to describe the texture or feel of the macaroni in ones mouth. Not under-cooked or hard but “al dente” (chewy).Unlike being over-cooked and being “soft” and ‘mushy”.

Salute

For example, more people seem to switch from liking cream in their coffee to liking it black, than go in the opposite direction. So, I would conclude that black coffee is absolutely better than coffee with cream, by the definition of preference migration alone

Where do you get these 'data'?

[quote="Maria Samms"]Now, I couldn't imagine eating soft asparagus again!

Maria, I agree with you regarding soft asparagus, unless it is in a cream of asparagus soup, and if that, I could eat a whole caldron of it.

Maria, I agree with you regarding soft asparagus, unless it is in a cream of asparagus soup...

or white asparagus.

Too bad you don't drink coffee. In the presence of the heady smell of bacon frying: great coffee tastes greater, and bad coffee tastes good. It is a symbiosis greater than anything I've experienced with wine.

Jenise, that is so true. To my mind, North America has the greatest breakfasts on Earth.

And it seems to me that adults move away from cream more frequently than moving to cream from black coffee.

Ok, I give. What was the Bdx in question? (and vintage)
Interesting phenomenon and Bdx is one os the wines that usually show as well at home as even at the chateau where it is made.
But then you could have a case that was badly handled?
Thanks,

The receptors for smell are very close to the brain... could that play a role... who knows?

What was the Bdx in question? (and vintage)
Interesting phenomenon and Bdx is one os the wines that usually show as well at home as even at the chateau where it is made. But then you could have a case that was badly handled?

2002 La Peyre, a St-Esteph. I actually wondered if the reason it tasted better in the first restaurant, where I ordered the wine and first became acquainted with it, was because it had been kept in the restaurant proper at a temperature exceeding 70. It was warm and had to be put on ice. I thought it had potentially undergone heat accelerated maturation.

Where do you get these 'data'?

I thought "Once you try black..." was axiomatic, like "If you make someone happy, you will be happy, too." Not sure there are data.

Not sure there are data.

'The world is flat' was once axiomatic as well.