Sauvignon Musque -- whats that??

I've never heard of Sauvignon Musque, and can't find it mentioned in Oz Clarke's or Jancis Robinson's books on varieties or in the WGG.

But theres a hefty 98 acres of it growing in Napa County, California, compared with say 119 acres of Viognier or 50 acres of Charbono.

But what is Sauvignon Musque?

Figures from 2007 Napa County Agricultural Crop Report at http://www.co.napa.ca.us/GOV/Department ... Report.pdf

See This http://www.wineloverspage.com/wineadvisor2/tswa20070219.php

I know of two terrific domestic examples of this clone, sold as Sauvignon Blanc:

Selene Wines - Hyde Vyd (Mia Klein, winemaker)
Merry Edwards Wines - RRV (M.E., winemaker)

Thanks.

I tend to go along with those who think that Sauvignon Musqué is a clone of Sauvignon Blanc, particularly aromatic in nature but with much the same nature as the genetic parent.

Best
Rogov

I tend to go along with those who think that Sauvignon Musqué is a clone of Sauvignon Blanc, particularly aromatic in nature but with much the same nature as the genetic parent.

Best
Rogov

Last month I posted a TN on a Chardonnay Musque from BC`s Blasted Church winery!

I've had a Chardonnay Musque from Vineland Estates in Ontario.

But I couldn't see any reference to Sauvignon Musque in my references and was surprised to see so much growing in Napa County.

I am shocked....shocked I tell you...that you all don't know the history of SauvMusque.
It is indeed a particularly aromatic clone of SauvBlanc. When DougMeador was in his heyday at Ventana and growing grapes
on his vnyd there SouthWest of Salinas, he was not particularly happy w/ the SauvBlanc he was growing and felt it
was a bit too herbaceous to most folks taste. As he purused the list of grape material available from the UC/Davis folks,
he happened to spy a SauvMusque clone listed. Nobody at UC/Davis knew its origins. So he got some cuttings, planted
them at Ventana, and found the wines were much better, much more aromatic, almost w/ Muscat overtones. Eventually,
he started getting requests for that clone and it has been propogated thru the NorthCoast since then. As told to TomHill by
DougMeador...if my recollect is correct.
Doug Meador was/is (he's semi-retired now) a tremendous influence on the wines of MontereyCounty. He seldom
gets the credit he deserves. The first to plant Syrah in Monterey and those first ones were real eye-openers. Without his
pioneering work, we probably wouldn't have the great wines coming from SantaLuciaHighlands we do now.
And that, folks, is the rest of the story. Man...does it make you feel old when you relate these old historical tales and
realize that you grew up with them!!
Tom

Of course Tom, anyone working in the Monterey area would be aware and dealing with the reputation for wines from the area being afflicted with a bad case of the 'veggies', so I can see the pressure to do something about the SB. I recall one sweet wine made from the regular SB at a Monterey winery in the 70s that reminded me of candied Brussels sprouts....

Of course Tom, anyone working in the Monterey area would be aware and dealing with the reputation for wines from the area being afflicted with a bad case of the 'veggies', so I can see the pressure to do something about the SB. I recall one sweet wine made from the regular SB at a Monterey winery in the 70s that reminded me of candied Brussels sprouts....

DickPeterson made some weird wines there at TheMontereyVnyd...and some very good ones. The Botrytis SauvBlanc was one of the weirder ones. But he made a botrytis JohRiesling ThanksgivingHarvest that was terrific. And a DecemberHarvest Zin that was pretty exotic & interesting, but rather good. And some Dessert/botrytis Pinots that were strange, but interesting.
From the very start, Wente, Jeckel, Ventana made some rather good Rieslings. But the region (SalinasVlly, Chalone Benchland was something else) was pretty badly tarred by the herbal/vegetal Cabs that came from there by Mirassou and others. They were all irrigated vnyds and the water additions kept the vines looking green & lush. Meador showed them that by cutting off the water later in the year and letting the vines look scrawny & scraggly, you could reduce the pyrazidine (or whatever that chemical is called that produces veggies in Cab) in the wines.
Tom

Ah, memories!

I was never a big fan of the Monterey Vineyard, but really got a kick out of the oddball (and some very good) Zins made by Monterey Peninsula Winery, although to be fair, I doubt much, if any fruit actually came from Monterey. Still have some 1079 Wilpete and Ferrero Ranch Zins from them - must look at the bottle and see if it says where the grapes were grown. Heck, those labels told you everything else you could ever want to know and then some. I recall one that stated that this particular Zin was the world's best accompaniment to a Tasahara Zen vegetable stew. For those that haven't been to California, there are many ....oddball groups that make their home there, including a group of Tassahara Buddhist monks that have an establishment in the Ventana wilderness, and I expect that these winemakers knew them.

Kind of fun to do historical speculation based on wine label notes. I've never come across a recipe so I've never tried the match.

I just googled this and came up with:

Whatever is done will not make a cucumber
more of a cucumber or a radish more of a radish.
Cucumber is cucumber, radish is radish.
What is done may make a vegetable more suitable
to some particular taste--that’s the usual way,
to see what taste we want. But why not
ask the cucumber, why not ask the radish?
What is the taste it would like to express?

I guess I can remember being of similar mental state back in the 70s, probably after a couple of bottles of high test Zinfandel....

Tom et al,

I've never heard this specific version of history before, that Doug Meador deserves a somewhat singular recognition for propagation of the musque clone into California and the North Coast. I'm doubtful this was so singular.

Others (including Dave Stare and Merry Edwards) were doing largely the same thing at the same time; that is, getting musque and other SB material directly from UC Davis themselves, well over thirty years ago, except they were actually getting the clone to be planted in the North Coast. I do think Doug was a key early implementor of the musque clone, and that he is also very deserving of respect for implementation of numerous better-suited viticultural practices in the Monterey AVAs.

Tom et al,

I've never heard this specific version of history before, that Doug Meador deserves a somewhat singular recognition for propagation of the musque clone into California and the North Coast. I'm doubtful this was so singular.

Others (including Dave Stare and Merry Edwards) were doing largely the same thing at the same time; that is, getting musque and other SB material directly from UC Davis themselves, well over thirty years ago, except they were actually getting the clone to be planted in the North Coast. I do think Doug was a key early implementor of the musque clone, and that he is also very deserving of respect for implementation of numerous better-suited viticultural practices in the Monterey AVAs.

Jeff,
I have no idea what Merry Edwards was doing, but I'm pretty sure DaveStare was not doing anything w/ SauvMusque. Least I'm sure he or Don would have mentioned it to me if he were. I don't think the DCV SauvMusque showed up until the 2000 time frame, but I'll check & find out for sure. I would presume they (Dave/Don and Merry) got their Musque directly from UC/Davis, but I suspect it was much later. I'm pretty confident that Doug was producing SauvMusque 10-15 yrs afore anyone else and the first one I recall, after Doug's, was up in the NapaVlly in the early-mid '90's time frame. At least if Dave & Merry were using Musque way back in the early '80's, when Doug started using it, they were keeping it very hush/hush. Back in the '80's, Doug was not much of a promoter of his wines and don't think he was out beating the bush getting others to grow Musque. So it could be very well that Don & Merry stumbled on Musque on their own, but I have my doubts.
Tom

My information is from both Merry Edwards circa personal conversation at Matanzas Creek in 1985, and Dave Stare circa 1986. If they are telling tales to customers, so be it.

My information is from both Merry Edwards circa personal conversation at Matanzas Creek in 1985, and Dave Stare circa 1986. If they are telling tales to customers, so be it.

Jeff,
Just because I'd never heard of it from Dave doesn't mean he wasn't working w/ musque. If he was, he was pretty low key about it.
The first DCV Musque was about the '03 vintage. A block of Taylor'sVnyd in Semillon and Viognier was grafted over to Musque about '00. If they had Musque growing at DCV afore that, they wern't trumpeting the fact. I've a friend there that's checking the history of Musque at DCV when he gets back this weekend.
Tom

My information is from both Merry Edwards circa personal conversation at Matanzas Creek in 1985, and Dave Stare circa 1986. If they are telling tales to customers, so be it.

Jeff,
Just because I'd never heard of it from Dave doesn't mean he wasn't working w/ musque. If he was, he was pretty low key about it.
The first DCV Musque was about the '03 vintage. A block of Taylor'sVnyd in Semillon and Viognier was grafted over to Musque about '00. If they had Musque growing at DCV afore that, they wern't trumpeting the fact. I've a friend there that's checking the history of Musque at DCV when he gets back this weekend.
Tom

Jeff,
Just heard from Bill Smart, Director of Marketing and Grandiose Plans at DCV. They have no knowledge of Musque there until Don planted it in Taylor'sVnyd there next to the wnry, ripping out Chard for SauvMusque and Viognier, in 2000. They (Bill, Don, Kim) don't think Dave was using Musque way back then. But, then, he very well could have been when he was planting in the '70's and just didn't bother to tell anyone (but you). I don't think he was planting much, if any, SauvBlanc after his original planting. Thru the late '80's, and the '90's, Don was pretty much in charge of vnyd plantings at DCV.
Bill will ask Dave when he sees him again.
As I said, I'm clueless as to what Merry was using.
Tom

Tom,

Thanks for checking this out. I have no other sources !

Tom,

Thanks for checking this out. I have no other sources !

Jeff and Tom,
I can well believe that Merry Edwards was planting Sauv. Musque back in her days at Matanzas Creek, as those wines had an aromatic profile unlike any contemporary SBs in the '80s. Certainly her current SB has some very Muscat-like aromatic character. OTOH, DCV's SB and SB Reserve didn't have that same aromatic character in that same era, but rather had a very appealing grassy character (I have a great fondness for methoxypyrazines). The Reserve, of course, also had the then-popular oak treatment, but the underlying fruit bore none of the telltale aromaticity I recall with the other wines. Pity that I didn't have any Ventana SB to compare with them (just the Chardonnays).

Mark Lipton

Well, Peter May did on the Musque thread...

Anyway, speaking of Charbono, had occasion to go up the mountain with Thomas Pellechia and a friend to visit the Spann Winery up in the Mayacamas Range (perched between Sonoma and Napa off Trinity Road).

We had previously stopped in the Family Wineries Tasting Room in Kenwood and had tasted the wine. It's a 2006 Napa Charbono, and all of 150 cases were made. It's a big, bad bruiser of a wine---but not in the least spoofulated or exaggerated; it's quite simply that way....because it's quite simply that way!

The Charbono variety, and particularly in Napa, is now legendary, although there's not that much of it left. It has made some tremendously compacted, big wines with long ageing potential in the past, and this one follows in that grand tradition.

Oddly enough, for all its massive presence, it betrays a resemblance to a Dolcetoo or Gamay on Steroids, for it is full to bursting with ripe fruit aromas and flavors.

'Tis a curious wine, but altogether lovable. And makes a mockery of all those exaggerated-for-effect Napa Cult Cabs.

Good luck finding it. You can always try the Spann website.

Oddly enough, for all its massive presence, it betrays a resemblance to a Dolcetoo or Gamay on Steroids, for it is full to bursting with ripe fruit aromas and flavors.

Have you had a modern Dolcetto? They are like the old traditionl Dolcettos (Dolcetti?) on steroids.

Been so long since I tasted a Charbono (Inglenook) I can't summon up the ghost to compare it in my mind to a Dolcetto.

Ah, those old Estate Inglenook Charbonos were wonderful, weren't they, Bill? Truly wine apart from the crowd.

Please note I was comparing only the fruity aspect of the wine to either Dolcetto or Gamay (on steroids, of course). The structure of the Charbono was totally different: massive and intense. But that's Charbono when it's young, that Dolcetto-ish (and yes, I do mean the old style Dolcetto, not the new stuff) fruit whiffy, almost candy/flowery fruitiness. But Charbono when it's aged, as the Inglenook Charbonos of old....those lost any whiffiness and gained a leafy, earthy (geeks would say 'sous-bois' no doubt) but massively compacted intensity of deep, black fruit.

It's really difficult to describe Charbono to anyone who hasn't tasted it, because it has that fruity whiff that makes it seem light and fragile, but then that whopping mass of structural density hits you full in the face. It's a puzzler of a wine. Wish there was more tonnage still left, and more people making it. Didn't need to be spoofed, that's for sure.

Mark,

You know, what you wrote about the character of the DVC early SBs (both) makes a lot of sense. Those were really racy wines with intensely grassy/green bean/hay and even asparagus notes, not a very musque-like scent at all. I liked them for that character too, esp the Reserve, but I'll never know why I didn't put together that contradiction myself.
Thanks.

I miss Stemmler's SB version from his nearby DC-area winery's early days too, though it too was also a different animal yet. I have no idea what happened to that place, but by the late 80s, it all changed for the ill.

Mark,

You know, what you wrote about the character of the DVC early SBs (both) makes a lot of sense. Those were really racy wines with intensely grassy/green bean/hay and even asparagus notes, not a very musque-like scent at all. I liked them for that character too, esp the Reserve, but I'll never know why I didn't put together that contradiction myself.
Thanks.

I first was drawn to DCV for the picnic grounds, which made a great lunch spot on bike trips through the Dry Creek Valley, but I grew to love the SBs there, moreso than the other wines offered. I was saddened to hear of the death of David Stare, but I got a lot of pleasure from his wines over the years.

I miss Stemmler's SB version from his nearby DC-area winery's early days too, though it too was also a different animal yet. I have no idea what happened to that place, but by the late 80s, it all changed for the ill.

When was Stemmler sold to K-J? Some time in the late '80s, no?

Mark Lipton

I first was drawn to DCV for the picnic grounds, which made a great lunch spot on bike trips through the Dry Creek Valley, but I grew to love the SBs there, moreso than the other wines offered. I was saddened to hear of the death of David Stare, but I got a lot of pleasure from his wines over the years.

Where'd you hear that?? Haven't been able to verify that.
Tom