Jancis R.. meets Gary V...; not soul mates!

[David M. Bueker]

The poor (bad!) pronunciations are one of the things that annoy me the most about Gary and also about the Grape Radio crew. It's unprofessional. I cringe when either one takes even a simple French or Italian name and just mangles it to within an inch of its life. Don't even get me started on their German pronunciations.

that really puts me at a disadvantage when it comes to pronunciation of wines/regions. For this reason, I seek out as much audio media regarding wine as possible (shows like "In Wine Country" and the "Thunder Show" or "Uncorked").

I was, however, disappointed when Gary V did a show about Italian wines and really botched up the pronunciations.

Maria, don't copy Gary's pronunciation of French names. It is truly horrible.

or German . . .

The only Vaynerchuk pronunciations I'd trust would be the Russian ones.

This raises an interesting issue.

To what extent should wine educators (authors, critics, TV show hosts...) do their best to pronounce the names of foreign wines like native speakers?

Some people know the right pronuciation, but feel that they will communicate better, or not appear to be snobbish, if they anglicise the foreign words.
Others, of course, have no inkling.

Surely, this is not the most important aspect of wine appreciation. However, it's true that some pronuciations sound like people dragging their fingernails across a blackboard...

What to do?

If a waiter pronounces the name of a dish, or a wine, the way it would be pronounced in, say, Italy or France, could this not be seen as:
- intimidating?
- pretentious
- difficult to understand?
- offputting?
- impossible to repeat?

Ditto for people on the TV???

As for the intimidating part, I certainly feel intimidated by the pronunciation of German words a mile long!

All this boils down to: should the wine educator stick with the lowest common denominator *or* stick this neck to pronounce wine names the "right" way i.e. the way they do in the country the wine comes from?


Best regards,
Alex R.

Making fun of pronunciation of foreign wine names is part & parcel of the wine snobbishness that puts newcomers off, and that GV is trying to change.

Why on earth shouldn't he pronounce a name in American style?

The winemaker doesn't care how you ask for their wine, as long as you do ask for their wine.

To what extent should wine educators (authors, critics, TV show hosts...) do their best to pronounce the names of foreign wines like native speakers?

Alex, I don't think that most Anglos can or should pronounce foreign names, wine included, like native speakers. However, they should do their best to get close, using guides such as Robin provides of the phonetics. Why, for example, must the English speaking media pronounce the French president's name "Sark -O -zy" rather than in the French fashion giving equal weight to each syllable? It is no more of a tongue twister.

Having said that, I think that French speakers are even worse than Anglos in mispronouncing foreign names. Even on cultural programmes like France Musique or the Belgian Musique3, where I am sure that most of the speakers know better, foreign names are terribly mangled or frankly francisized, like Michel-Ange or Léonard de Vinci; I think that it is an inverted snobbery to make the names sound "civilized". By contrast the Belgian Flemish do much better and even BBC3 tries, although the results are often poor.

Why on earth shouldn't he pronounce a name in American style?

Accent is one thing, and I agree that depending on the circumstances it may be appropriate to use sounds that are more common for the intended audience. However, at times Gary V (and others) will completely mangle the word by inserting syllables and letters that aren't there or omitting syllables and letters that are there.

Alex,
My personal feeling is that people of all professions should strive to render foreign names and lend-words as close to their original pronunciation as is practical. As a teacher, when I use a name like Schrödinger or Fourier, I pronounce them as a German or French person would (at least, to the best of my abilities). In fact, I think that my students would consider it odd and perhaps off-putting were I to give those names an English pronunciation. To do so, to me, reflects a contempt or ignorance that is unseemly, to say the least.

Mark Lipton

This raises an interesting issue.

To what extent should wine educators (authors, critics, TV show hosts...) do their best to pronounce the names of foreign wines like native speakers?

Some people know the right pronuciation, but feel that they will communicate better, or not appear to be snobbish, if they anglicise the foreign words.
Others, of course, have no inkling.

Surely, this is not the most important aspect of wine appreciation. However, it's true that some pronuciations sound like people dragging their fingernails across a blackboard...

What to do?

If a waiter pronounces the name of a dish, or a wine, the way it would be pronounced in, say, Italy or France, could this not be seen as:
- intimidating?
- pretentious
- difficult to understand?
- offputting?
- impossible to repeat?

Ditto for people on the TV???

As for the intimidating part, I certainly feel intimidated by the pronunciation of German words a mile long!

All this boils down to: should the wine educator stick with the lowest common denominator *or* stick this neck to pronounce wine names the "right" way i.e. the way they do in the country the wine comes from?


Best regards,
Alex R.

I couldn't agree more with this assessment Alex.

I have been lucky enough to have the opportunity to study a few languages (including French), so I do know the "basics" when it comes to French/Spanish/Italian/Portuguese wine pronunciations. As for Gary V, yes, his pronunciations are not great...however, from the 50 or so episodes I watched, apart from the Italian show, his pronunciations are not completely wrong...and thus, still a helpful tool for me in conjuction with other sources. (btw, I have never seen a Thunder Show about German wines, and I know NO German, so I can't attest to those pronunciations/mispronunciations).

Again, I think that Gary's pronunciations are very "American". IMO, we (Americans in general) have a tendency to pronounce foreign words in a very American way. I think this is partly because we don't "grow up" with a lot of exposure to foreign languages, unlike our European or foreign brethen. Also, I know for myself, sometimes when I do know the correct way of saying something, I will still "Americanize" it for fear of not being understood or sounding pretentious.

A good example of this the word "croissant". When my In-laws from England come to visit, they always pronounce it "QUAH-sauhn"...like the French would pronounce it. I know that's how you say it, I can say it that way...but unless I am in a upscale bakery or in France, I say "cruh-SAWNT".

Alex - I do wish that wine educators would learn and pronounce wine as close as possible to how the winery, or area where the wine is made, pronounces them. That is my biggest gripe with the Thunder Show. Just because we Americanize most words here in the US, doesn't mean I think it's right...but, again, that is just my opinion.

Alex - I do wish that wine educators would learn and pronounce wine as close as possible to how the winery, or area where the wine is made, pronounces them. That is my biggest gripe with the Thunder Show. Just because we Americanize most words here in the US, doesn't mean I think it's right...but, again, that is just my opinion.

Maria,

For me, Gary's message is far more important than his style or his pronunciation. However, while his style probably plays an important part in helping him to connect with his audience, I have a hard time in believing than he would lose a single person if he made a better attempt to pronounce French, Italian and German words in a way understandable to a native speaker as well as to Americans.

I give Gary the credit here of believing that his mispronunciations may not be a deliberate policy. He probably just has a poor ear. He strikes me as being the sort of guy who is inclusive and respectful of foreign cultures; otherwise I doubt if his taste in wine would be so wide ranging.

Again, though, the Vayniacs are a completely different demographic. You don't know many of them and neither do I. They're not in our generation, they don't read the wine critics, and they don't hang out on wine-geek forums. But ... at the risk of repetition ... Gary has done an amazing job of bringing them into fine wine.

I think we're oversimplifying the generation/internet thing here. I'm 38, grew up with computers, was using the internet regularly in pre-WWW form by 1991, work in computer software, and am not attracted to his approach.

Why on earth shouldn't he pronounce a name in American style?

For the same reason that Americans should not pronounce the names of Francois Truffaut or Jean Luc Godard by sounding the "t" or the "d" at the end of their names.

True, once a word has become an accepted part of a language (such as the English pronunciation of the city of Paris), that is acceptable. Beyond that, however, mispronunciation (accent aside) is a sign of ignorance.


Best
Rogov

True, once a word has become an accepted part of a language (such as the English pronunciation of the city of Paris), that is acceptable. Beyond that, however, mispronunciation (accent aside) is a sign of ignorance.

I agree with Rogov, and will further add that it's not only ignorant but disrespectful.

While I may be pushing 50, I know a load of 20-something year olds. Some drink wine, some don't. None watch Gary. Actually,more order from Garagiste (the hype kings), than WL. To me, the biggest question if Gary is the Parker of GenY is why if you look on WL's site at the wines he gives big scores to (and in most cases feature in a video), some quite small production wines were reviewed months ago and are still available, both at Wine Library and elsewhere. So where is the evidence of this great following? Maybe they're all under age, but PLAN on buying wine when it's legal?

Agree fully Dale. As a 20-something year old geek, I certainly don't buy Gary as the Parker of GenY. I personally find the style of his shows quite grating and irritating (and I take some of his reviews about as seriously as I take Dr. Jay Miller's reviews of Aussie wines).
As far as introducing wine to other people around my age - I've seen nothing first-hand (at least from the people I know in my age group who drink wine) to indicate that WLTV/Gary has any significant impact on them, let alone one close to what Parker has on wine geeks. The majority of people I know in their early/mid 20s who drink wine casually (i.e. the occasional bottle every now and then with a dinner or with friends) don't have any idea who Gary Vaynerchuk is, what Wine Library is, and tend to prefer buying wines based of word-of-mouth recommendations from friends, or from smaller shelf talkers/suggestions in stores, and usually don't even bother going onto the 'net to research/look up wines, see reviews and prices/availability. Of the serious wine geeks I know in my age group - I can think of one at most who takes GV seriously. There are a few guys I know who do buy from WL, but that's more due to the very good prices on some items rather than Gary's videos and reviews. At least from what I've seen first-hand (among a lot of other students and other 20-odd year olds interested in wine), I think there are a lot fewer people out there in that 'Vayniac' demographic for us to sniffy-sniff with than perceived.

Cheers,

Salil
[Who wonders how many Garagiste/Rimmerman-aniacs there are]

Why on earth shouldn't he pronounce a name in American style?

True, once a word has become an accepted part of a language (such as the English pronunciation of the city of Paris), that is acceptable. Beyond that, however, mispronunciation (accent aside) is a sign of ignorance.

How should the great American public pronounce Ch Talbot & Ch Palmer?

What you are saying that while only a few wine enthusiasts call for French and German wines then correct way to pronounce their names is as a native of that country would.

But when the great unwashed get the confidence to call for the wines in American pronounciation then that will become the correct way to say it.

Roll on Gary V -- let the revolution start!!

True, once a word has become an accepted part of a language (such as the English pronunciation of the city of Paris), that is acceptable. Beyond that, however, mispronunciation (accent aside) is a sign of ignorance.

And how does a word, however pronounced, become an accepted part of a language?

Use (or, if you prefer, misuse).

Why on earth shouldn't he pronounce a name in American style?

However, at times Gary V (and others) will completely mangle the word by ........... omitting syllables and letters that are there.

Unlike those French, of course. You never hear them omitting letters in their words.

And how does a word, however pronounced, become an accepted part of a language?

Not merely a matter of acceptance of error but an acceptance of ignorance. In Israel, for example, Hebrew and Arabic speakers pronounced Lincoln as "lincolen". By any stretch of the imagination, that is incorrect no matter how broadlly accepted.

On the other hand the use of Paris (pronounced with the "is") is far more correct for the name of that good city originates from the Parisee tribe that once occupied the land.

In some cases words become accepted even through mispronounced because part of the speech mechanism is not usual or even pronuncable to others.....for example "chutzpah" is pronunced with a hard "ch" which is difficult for many so hutzpah has become accepted.

Apologies for possible snobbery but when language deteriorates so do the arts, the sciences and thinking in general. And, let's be honest....what would we all think of the the person who says "porsini" or "porkini" mushrooms or who speaks of the paintings of "Van Go". If we can learn the names of mushrooms and artists, why not those of wines and wine regions?

Indeed, by the way, the occasional error in pronunciation is perfectly acceptable. All on the condition that we do not then insist that the error is now a legitimate pronunciation. To err is human. To correct one's own errors far more divine.

Best
Rogov

Alex - I do wish that wine educators would learn and pronounce wine as close as possible to how the winery, or area where the wine is made, pronounces them. That is my biggest gripe with the Thunder Show. Just because we Americanize most words here in the US, doesn't mean I think it's right...but, again, that is just my opinion.

Maria,

For me, Gary's message is far more important than his style or his pronunciation. However, while his style probably plays an important part in helping him to connect with his audience, I have a hard time in believing than he would lose a single person if he made a better attempt to pronounce French, Italian and German words in a way understandable to a native speaker as well as to Americans.

I give Gary the credit here of believing that his mispronunciations may not be a deliberate policy. He probably just has a poor ear. He strikes me as being the sort of guy who is inclusive and respectful of foreign cultures; otherwise I doubt if his taste in wine would be so wide ranging.

ITA with you Tim. I definitely don't think Gary mispronounces on purpose. But he should be reading his feedback and *trying* to better his pronunciations, IMO. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but after his badly botched Italian show, I didn't hear an apology or correction show from Gary. There were tons of posts saying he had made mistakes. BIG confusing mistakes! And this wasn't a mispronunciation, but just calling the wine by the wrong name (He kept saying Montalcino D'Abruzzo instead of Montepulciano D'Abruzzo). I also think, that maybe he needs a consultant of sorts, someone who can help with pronunciations and should review the show for mistakes before it airs. That one show (Italian one) really put Gary V's program in a very negative light for me, and I stopped watching for awhile. However, having HRH Jancis Robinson on there made me give the Thunder show a 2nd chance.

Again, I have found the show helpful overall, in conjuction with other shows and sources, but I am not out buying T-shirts and wristbands. (Hey, maybe being a New Jerseyian and Jets fan makes me a little more tolerate as well!)

One should add that there is also a difference between an 'average citizen' mispronouncing words from cultures that they rarely interact with, and a specialized worker mispronouncing words from cultures that form the basis of his/her professional life.

One should add that there is also a difference between an 'average citizen' mispronouncing words from cultures that they rarely interact with, and a specialized worker mispronouncing words from cultures that form the basis of his/her professional life.

Point very well made!

One should add that there is also a difference between an 'average citizen' mispronouncing words from cultures that they rarely interact with, and a specialized worker mispronouncing words from cultures that form the basis of his/her professional life.

Exactly!

One should add that there is also a difference between an 'average citizen' mispronouncing words from cultures that they rarely interact with, and a specialized worker mispronouncing words from cultures that form the basis of his/her professional life.

I agree 100%

I can understand butchering French pronunciation (Ce n'est pas facile), but Italian?


I got tired off spelling out 1ers when ordering wines over the phone and finally hit the books and the cds (Pimsleur) and so could Gary. But I don't think that is the message his core audience wants to hear. Wine isn't something you study and work at; just rip out the cork and have fun. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

But I don't think that is the message his core audience wants to hear. Wine isn't something you study and work at; just rip out the cork and have fun. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Point well-taken but still. I am far from a foreign language whiz but after one or two trips to the country most people should have a basic understanding of how the basic sounds and phonetics work. Enough to pronounce a couple dozen producers' names correctly. Especially for stuff like Italian, Spanish, German, and French which are so close to English. (We're not talking about Mandarin here).

And still, for someone working in the business one would imagine there are enough opportunities to discuss these words that the pronounciation should stick. Unless the only interaction is with similarly non-aware Americans working with European wine!?