Vin Santo: scarce, unknown or just unloved?

[Jenise]

A friend just called asking about the Vin Santo I brought to dinner on Christmas Eve, wondering how he could not know that something so wonderful existed. That got me to asking myself if the problem is actual rarity, as in there's just not that much produced or exported, or if relative unfamiliarity means there's little demand?

So I decided to check for tasting notes on this forum.

The most recent TN is mine (Isole e Olena), but before that we go back to October to find one by Otto. Prior to October, we have to go all the way back to July to find a TN by Ian Sutton about a '93 Avignonesi, and May for notes by Otto and Oswaldo on Montagliari and Il Colombaio de Cencio Sassodoro vin santos respectively. In March, Tim York reported on a '93 Felsina, which broke a long dry spell from Bob Parsons' Dec 07 note on an 01 Ricasoli. For 2008, then, there have only been six tasting notes posted on vin santos.

But there are a lot of references to vin santo indicating that forumites are well aware of the wine. Bob Parsons and John Tomasso both recently mentioned Greek and California dessert malvasias, and glancing references to vin santos enjoyed in the past by Frank Deis and Daniel Rogov were spotted. Too, there are references like Dale Williams's comment, imbedded in a TN on a Sauternes, that "the recipe called for a vin santo, which I didn't have."

So where are all the Vin Santos and how come no one's drinking them?

I think it is just difficult to find. I would imagine it would be a very popular wine if more was made/or more exported because it comes in such a range of sweetness. I don't know if it is normal, but we have seen examples here ranging from just slightly sweet (IIRC as little as 40g/l RS - I might remember wrong, it's been years) to some super sweet ones with 400g/l RS (Avigonesi is quite extreme IIRC). Sorry for all the IIRCs, but they are so rare here that though I do drink any that comes my way, most of my experiences are old. Anyway, there are some great desserts made so not all are just for cantuccini.

Not usually made in large quantities, and far easier to find in Italy and Switzerland than in France, the UK or the USA.
Just for the fun of it, a few tasting notes:



Ruffino, Vin Santo, Tuscany, 1995: Medium- to full-bodied, with generous sweetness balanced nicely by natural acidity, this elegant Vin Santo boasts generous aromas and flavors of honeyed almonds and butternuts and tea and, on the long finish an almost jammy berry sensation. At its very best with well-aged Parmesan cheese. Drink now-2008. Score 94. (Re-tasted 22 Sep 2008)
Capezzana, Vin Santo di Carmignano, Contini Bonacossi Riserva, Tuscany, 2002:A traditional Vin Santo, complete with an opening of bitter peach pit and salt water notes as the old men who play bocci most enjoy it. Once beyond those, the wine blossoms on the palate to show dried peach and apricot notes, those matched by generous hints of caramel, roasted butternuts and, on the long finish a note of candied citrus peel. Not for long-term cellaring but excellent now-2011. Score 91. (Tasted twice with consistent notes 14 Apr and 22 Sep 2006)

Carpineto, Vin Santo, Tuscany, 2000: Dark almost burnished gold in color, made entirely from Sangiovese grapes, loaded with dried apricot flavors on a ight caramel base. Medium- to full-bodied, with generous sweetness balanced nicely by acidity and very smooth and round on the palate. Well crafted and delicious. Drink now-2012, perhaps longer. Score 91. (Tasted 11 Mar 2008)

Domaine Sigalas, VinSanto Sigalas, Santorini, Greece, 2003: Medium- to full-bodied, a blend of sun-dried Asyrtiko and Aidana grapes. Generously sweet, with fine balancing acidity and loaded with fig, pear, apple, kiwi and pineapple fruits all overlaid with notes of cinnamon, crème brulee and a hint of anise that creeps comfortably in on the finish. Drink now-2011. Score 90.

Boutari, VinSanto, Santorini, Greece, 2004: Made from Asyrtiko and Aidani grapes, a generously sweet white dessert wine made from sun-dried grapes. Gold, with orange and green tints, generously sweet, with ripe peach, apricot and citrus notes. Could use some balancing acidity. Best as a sauce for vanilla or peach ice cream. Drink now. Score 84.

Tenuta Santome, Raboso, Pieve, Veneto, 2004: Dark enough in color, full-bodied and intense and tannic enough at first blush to call to mind Madiran. At this stage almost searingly tannic but showing fine balance and structure that bode well for the future. As the wine develops look for black cherries, blackberries, mint and eucalyptus, those parting to show generously spicy and, on the super-long finish notes of freshly tanned leather. Approachable now only if opened 8-10 hours in advance and decanted. Best 2009-2015. Score 90. (Tasted 5 Apr 2008)

And a few older tasting notes at
http://www.stratsplace.com/cgi-bin/sear ... =&UserID=4

Best
Rogov

Vin Santo is a wine made in an oxidative style and we've been taught that oxidation in a wine is "bad".

That's really only part of the problem. People have not really learned to appreciate oxidized wines unless it's Madeira. The other problem is that it comes in such a big range in styles, so you never are sure what you're getting. Some are very sweet, some virtually dry. Some slightly oxidized, some very oxidized. Some w/ oak, some w/o. People get confused or are not sure what they're going to get, so they fall back to old standbys.
Such a pity, since some VinSantos are extraordinary.
Tom

Years ago I used to buy Vin Santo. But I quickly realized that the majority imported to US are pretty awful. I generally found those from name Chianti producers (I usually bought Felsina and Frescobaldi) pretty dependable, but for my tastes I eventually decided I could do better at same price levels in Germany and Loire, or even Sauternes.

Avignonesi is the only Vin Santo I've ever had that approached profound, but you can buy Cuvee Constance at those prices.

This of course is just my personal preferences, and I know lots of people love Vin Santo.

Back in the 1990s, when my company brought in Brolio to the US, we had the Brolio Vin Santo. It was great stuff.

Had to spend a lot of effort to sell it, as most people were not familiar with it, and you just didn't sell that much Tuscan Vin Santo at all.

I immediately canceled all the 750mls and asked to get only 375mls. Much easier to sell, and much easier for a single buyer to justify such an intense sweet wine.

And I would sell it in the Italian tradition of consumption: I'd carry around a box of cantuccini di mandorla (not biscotti, too crumbly and sweet) and pour a couple of ounces and urge the buyer to dunk the biscotti in the vin santo and nibble. Then I'd tell the whole story (small barrels, open to the elements, two years of fermentation, four years of barrel maturation...)

Often I couldn't get the wine past an on-premise buyer, so I'd ask the chef to come out, have chef taste, and then start talking about all the great desserts that the vin santo could go in and with. That usually got me a sale. Never got any volume, mind you, but it got the name out there.

My thoughts have been picked out by others:
- Rare
- Expensive
- Variable in style and quality

These 3 aspects seem to create a catch22 situation, where the variability could be investigated and favourites sought, but it's not easy, nor cheap to find the examples to experiment on.

The Avignonesi was tasted at a large "scrum" tasting in London and was poured in fairly miniscule portions (but it is far from cheap). The few other tastes I've had from other producers have been mildly disappointing.

regards

Ian

I checked my inventory and found that I have a case and a half of Vin Santo. Most were as most noted, expensive and rare with the cheapest in the US purhcased for $45 per half bottle. Bottles that I purchased while I was in Santorini (including Sigalas and Boutari were both under $20 usd (in fact, the boutari was under $15) which leads me to note that the disparity in pricing might be local US only, other countries that produce the stuff might not have the same issues with pricing.

I had perhaps my first ever taste of Vin Santo at a Fayetteville Wine Society meeting and promptly purchased a half bottle at the member price (about $35.) It was at a "wines for pairing with Thanksgiving dinner" and was paired with the pecan tart dessert. Considering the work and time that goes into producing it, it may be similar to Eiswein or Beerenauslese which is produced in limited quantities (but not as expensive to purchase.) I will post a note once I open it which I expect to be sometime this winter.

[Jenise]

I had perhaps my first ever taste of Vin Santo at a Fayetteville Wine Society meeting and promptly purchased a half bottle at the member price (about $35.) It was at a "wines for pairing with Thanksgiving dinner" and was paired with the pecan tart dessert. Considering the work and time that goes into producing it, it may be similar to Eiswein or Beerenauslese which is produced in limited quantities (but not as expensive to purchase.) I will post a note once I open it which I expect to me sometime this winter.

I guess I'm finding out through this thread just how rare vin santos are; I hadn't realized it. I know that our first exposure to it was on a Tuscan vacation, and we came home (to Alaska, at the time) and were able to purchase 750 mm bottles of Antinori's fine version of it at our local wine store in Anchorage for around $30ish--cheaper, at the time, than Sauternes. And right now I can buy the Isole e Olena I mentioned (500 ml for $45) at my local upscale grocer, whereas they don't have any Sauternes at all. Not sure about all the years in between, but basically there's always been one around when I needed it, and that hasn't led to my personally being able to assume that access is an issue. I'll look forward to your note on the bottle you purchased.

I'd subscribe as well to the barriers already mentioned.
Most recent tasted (and actually bought a few 1/2 bottles):

• 2001 Castello della Paneretta Vin Santo del Chianti Classico - Italy, Tuscany, Chianti, Vin Santo del Chianti Classico (10/4/2008)
  Rich, only moderately sweet for a dessert wine, touch of almond. Not "sherried" but shares that taste profile and appeal. Lovely match with ripe canteloupe and with dark chocolate.

[David M. Bueker]

I'm already in way too deep with other sweet wines.

Now that I think of it, over the years I've had more Vin Santo disappointments than triumphs, but then I can say the same thing about Burgundy and I'm sure not going to stop drinking that. The latest in the VS triumph category is a 1995 Felsina that I bought a 375 half-case of four years ago for $29.88 each, not an especially daunting price for a stickie with some age on it that was delcious when I bought it and has gotten better every year. I love it (and luckily still have a couple of bottles).

But maybe "stickie" isn't the word that does justice to Vin Santo as the best I've had have by no means been unctuous. This is relatively subtle stuff.

Unloved.

Now that I think of it, over the years I've had more Vin Santo disappointments than triumphs, but then I can say the same thing about Burgundy and I'm sure not going to stop drinking that. The latest in the VS triumph category is a 1995 Felsina that I bought a 375 half-case of four years ago for $29.88 each, not an especially daunting price for a stickie with some age on it that was delcious when I bought it and has gotten better every year. I love it (and luckily still have a couple of bottles).

But maybe "stickie" isn't the word that does justice to Vin Santo as the best I've had have by no means been unctuous. This is relatively subtle stuff.

I agree with all of this; a good Vin Santo is a complex, intriguing wine, often not obviously sweet. And the combination of Vin Santo with anything containing nuts is worth a detour. (I made almond biscotti to give as gifts over Christmas, and they were great with a mediocre Vin Santo I had lying around.)

OK, this thread got me to a-thinkin' that I had a Vin Santo down in the pit. Sure 'nuf! Found 375ml of a 1985 Villa di Vetrice Vin Santo. Any thoughts on how this may have fared after 23 years? FWIW, the color is about that of Scotch...

BP

Yep, Scotch! That's what my 1995 Felsina Vin Santo* looks like, Oliver. I opened my fifth of six 375s tonight. This is how raisins would smell and taste if they were liquified by angels. It was good young, great three years ago, sublime now, and god only knows how wonderful it's going to be in another ten years. This is a complete wine: beautiful nose, unctuous yet light on the palate, and with an intensely sweet finish that seems like it's going to hang in there and keep me smiling until breakfast. My belated New Years resolution: I will keep my hands off the last bottle until January 1, 2019.

* Actually, its full name is "1995 Felsina Verardenga Vin Santo Chianti Classico," although what the Verardenga stands for beats me.

So where are all the Vin Santos and how come no one's drinking them?

What is the truth about fortified VinSanto. How can I know which VinSanto is a "real" wine ? Do they have to write on the bottled vino liquoroso, price difference, writing Vino Santo or VinSanto. What is so special in making VinSanto, the drying or maturing methods ?

Thanks for the possible answers

OK, this thread got me to a-thinkin' that I had a Vin Santo down in the pit. Sure 'nuf! Found 375ml of a 1985 Villa di Vetrice Vin Santo. Any thoughts on how this may have fared after 23 years? FWIW, the color is about that of Scotch...

BP

Bill, I think you should bring that to the March offline in Cincinnati so that you get more than one opinion!

..........

* Actually, its full name is "1995 Felsina Verardenga Vin Santo Chianti Classico," although what the Verardenga stands for beats me.

Actually, that would be Berardenga. Castelnuovo Berardenga is an area within Chianti near Siena and appears to be the location of Fattoria di Felsina.

I like Vin Santo. But it is hard to find. Have not really noticed it in wine stores. Even Italian restaurants don't have it. Only siting was on the menu at the Nob Hill Cafe in San Francisco. I had Vin Santo with a biscotti for dessert. Definitely would do it again.

In reply to one of P. Arvela's questions here is a link that tells how Vin Santo is produced (and also the grapes used in different Italian regions):

http://www.foodreference.com/html/artvinsanto.html

Ripe grapes are hung where they receive air circulation and exposure to climate changes. When sufficiently dried they are pressed and after the wine is racked it is placed under the roof of the winery where it can receive further influence from the climate.