WTN: Loires and German

With butternut squash soup and "Danny Kaye" chicken salad (heavy on the tarragon), the 2007 Reinhold Haart Piesporter Goldtropfchen Riesling Kabinett. I know Haart is considered among very top producers, but while I've never doubted the conventional wisdom and and have always liked the wines, none ever really spoke to me. But this one is superb. Bright peachy fruit, racy acids, great length with a slatey finish. Evolves over time, with apple, earth, and even a hint of Earl Grey tea. Next day it seems a tad tarter but at the same time sweeter, kind of lime sweettarts. Very good wine, why did I just buy one? A-

Just realized that my NYE list left off yet another bottle of the 2005 Zilliken
Saarburger Rausch Riesling Kabinett - like others I have had, a lovely if atypically big/sweet Kab, quite tasty. B+

Tonight, dinner with David. While Betsy was cooking we snacked and sipped the 2007 Luneau-Papin Gros Plant du Pays Nantais VV. I think Gros Plant = Ugni Blanc, but I had heard good things about this wine, and certainly love producer. But this never sang to me, clean enough, but mostly just acids and lemon fruit. Probably would have been better with more food, but as is, B-/C+

David loves beef stroganoff, Betsy asked which recipe she should do- the upscale one, or 1950s. He chose latter. She did use shiitakes instead of button mushrooms, but otherwise this was straight old-style. Wine was the
2005 Filliatreau "La Grande Vignolle" Saumur-Champigny. More closed that last bottle, I think this needs to rest a while. Black cherries and berries, some tannins, higher acids, but seemingly more held in reserve. Some herbs and tobacco with time. For tonight, B


Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.

[David M. Bueker]

I don't buy enough Haart either, but in my case it's an availability problem.

Haart and Haag fall in my blind spot. I have some, but don't love them. Maybe I just don't like that bend of the river.

I keep trying them because that Fish guy loves them (Haart) but I'm with you, Dale. Nice enough, but no "wow", to borrow a phrase.

[David M. Bueker]

I'm going to throw this out there and ask if either of you think Haart (and maybe Haag) wines are a little too opulent?

Looking at the Piesporter Goldtropfchen - I really like St. Urbans-Hof, but never have gone wild about Haart (except some '94 he poured for me at the estate...maybe they just need a lot of time).

Yes. my impression of the ones the I've had is that they were the Turleys of Mosel riesling.

[David M. Bueker]

Sans the alcohol of course.

Haart and Haag fall in my blind spot. I have some, but don't love them. Maybe I just don't like that bend of the river.

I keep trying them because that Fish guy loves them (Haart) but I'm with you, Dale. Nice enough, but no "wow", to borrow a phrase.

That Fish guy indeed likes them quite a lot (he had a couple of other very good ones recently 98, 94, 93). However, Theo Haart's wine style is indeed "weightier" than that of other makers. Maybe this comes over especially in their youth. As I report on my little site, his 2003 PG Spätlese are drinking incredibly well at the moment (especially the -15-).

There is hardly a more traditional maker in the Mosel than him: low yields (side comment - one can debate whether low yields is indeed traditional for the Mosel ...), no tampering with enzymes, acidification, de-acidification, yeasts cultures or early bottling. I wouldn't want only Theo Haart wines in my cellar but I would surely miss something if I hadn't some.

But styles debates are difficult ones so maybe your wine heaven is elsewhere.

Where I am more surprised is that you never had a Haag you liked. Stylistically, this should maybe more up your road. Sad really. Ever had the BJS Spätlese 2007? Or any 04 (if you like your wines more "on the zest")?

Theo Haart: the Turley of the Mosel? I'll tell him! His son Johannes is well-travelled and surely knows what a "Turley" is

I'm going to throw this out there and ask if either of you think Haart (and maybe Haag) wines are a little too opulent?

Fritz Haag as too opulent? Maybe the flavors but the textures have always seduced me with their melting delicacy, especially in comparison to Haart whose wines have seemed a bit thicker. For that reason I have always enjoyed Haart and been happy to drink but have been much more likely to purchase Haag.

I'm enjoying this discussion. I have some Fritz Haag on hand (at least I think I still have some) but not any Haart wines. May have to correct that omission. It was a simple Piesporter Michelsberg (who knows what producer--I didn't keep notes at the time) that caused me to fall in love with Mosel wines back in the late '60's when I was living in Mannheim. I then got my parents and godmother's husband into drinking Piesporter wines when I was back in the USA and my godmother's husband got the University Club restaurant/lounge (Lincoln, NE) to start stocking Piesporter Goldtropchen. I haven't had a Piesporter in some time (my usual wine store doesn't really stock many German wines and I end up buying them when in DC).

[David M. Bueker]

My issue with Haag is clouded by the fact that I haven't had decent access to it until after 2001. So I have been tasting/drinking the more opulent vintages.

Plus I was really responding to Mike rather than making a personal assessment of the Haag style.

Very interesting. Looking back, my "good but not compelling" experiences with Haart were '03, '05 and '06, so maybe I just need to check in more austere vintages

My issue with Haag is clouded by the fact that I haven't had decent access to it until after 2001. So I have been tasting/drinking the more opulent vintages..

Me too. I didn't start drinking German wine until the release of the 01 vintage.

But even comparing the vintages, for example tasting the 05, 06, and 07 wines from Haart and Haag next to each other, I would not have put them in the same stylistic category as Haart seemed substantially thicker and richer.

[David M. Bueker]

But compared to say Willi Schaefer?

But compared to say Willi Schaefer?

For me, the difference between flavors and textures is still key. If you're talking about flavors I can see how one might call Fritz Haag 'opulent'. But what has most attracted me to the estate is the melt-in-the-mouth sherbert delicate-ness of the texture, so I tend to think of them as one of the more delicate producers in the region (rather than opulent). But I think we're mostly differing on terminology here.

[David M. Bueker]

Well I've got some 2002s (kabinett and spatlese) in the cellar, so I will need to open them. I'll see how I feel about a more restrained vintage.

I also have one bottle of 1990 Brauneberger Juffer-Sonnenuhr Auslese, but that's a horse of a different color.

Generalizations are difficult, but I think David is going the right way with his comparison to Schaefer. My tastes definitely run to the lean side of things. Things like "sherbet", apricot, peach, etc - are usually not what I'm looking for in my riesling. I like tart, crunchy apple.

I haven't had Haag or Haart in leaner vintages either. But the ones I have had from 1998, 2001, 2004 and 2005 haven't been as appealing to me as say Schaefer, Christoffel (through 2001), Selbach-Oster and some of the Saar producers. But hey, I still have some 2001 Haart Spatlese (including the auction) and some 2004 Haart too. Maybe my opinion will change.

Or maybe it's the two "a"s in a row that creep me out, looking like a pair of eyes with wild eyebrows.

Things like "sherbet", apricot, peach, etc - are usually not what I'm looking for in my riesling. I like tart, crunchy apple..

So what do you think about Vollenweider?

I like the sleek and fresh producers but for what it's worth I often prefer tart racy verdant flavors to the apple kind. I guess has something to do with what malic acid does to the texture that I don't like, but I'm not chemically astute enough to explain details. Anyone?

So what do you think about Vollenweider?

I knew that was coming, either from you or Bueker, or both.

We all have our own little inconsistencies, don't we?

I haven't had Haag or Haart in leaner vintages either. But the ones I have had from 1998, 2001, 2004 and 2005

Hmmm, 1998, 2001 and 2004 are probably the leanest among recent vintages. Not sure what else you could be looking for really.

Haag 98 and 01 is about apply flavours and so are probably the 04s (not had any since ages). 05 and 06 obviously not. 07 may be too ripe for your taste in terms of aromatic profile if apple and tart is what you need to satisfy your crave.