Chateauneuf Trivia

How many of the 13 allowed varietals have you ever tasted as single varietals? I think I have tasted about 8....

I know that everyone has these varietals memorized but thought I'd list them anyway....

Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre, Cinsault, Muscardin, Counoise, Clairette, Bourboulenc, Picpoul, Roussanne, Terret Noir, Picardan and Vaccarèse.

[David M. Bueker]

7 or 8 for me. I think I had a Bourboulenc at a wine shop tasting once a long time ago.

Seven

For sure I've had 6: Grenache, Syrah, Mourvedre, Roussanne, Cinsault & Picpoul.

I've certainly also had Ugni Blanc, which I think is sometimes referred to Clairette in some areas, but I believe the Clairette in Rhone is a separate variety.

I've had wines with significant Counoise, but not enough to qualify as a single varietal wine,

All thirteen. If you visit Beaucastel a few times, you get a chance to taste a lot of them you might not otherwise encounter. Just don't ask me if I remember the differences between them.

aHow many of the 13 allowed varietals have you ever tasted as single varietals? I think I have tasted about 8....

I know that everyone has these varietals memorized but thought I'd list them anyway....

Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre, Cinsault, Muscardin, Counoise, Clairette, Bourboulenc, Picpoul, Roussanne, Terret Noir, Picardan and Vaccarèse.

14, actually, since Grenache blanc is allowed into the wines, too. I think that the answer for me is 7, assuming that the Clairettte of Cremant de Die is the same grape.

Mark Lipton

aHow many of the 13 allowed varietals have you ever tasted as single varietals? I think I have tasted about 8....

I know that everyone has these varietals memorized but thought I'd list them anyway....

Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre, Cinsault, Muscardin, Counoise, Clairette, Bourboulenc, Picpoul, Roussanne, Terret Noir, Picardan and Vaccarèse.

14, actually, since Grenache blanc is allowed into the wines, too. I think that the answer for me is 7, assuming that the Clairettte of Cremant de Die is the same grape.

Mark Lipton

Actually, to be pedantic and nitpicky (but not macho), if you've had Clairette de Die, you haven't really had Clairette. You had Muscat mostly. Clairette de Die is Muscat a Petits Grains with Clairette allowed in to the blend...at 25% max. You made the mistake of confusing Clairette the grape with Clairette the AOC; always fatal when you're trying to be simple and straightforward with anything French.

Actually, to be pedantic and nitpicky (but not macho), if you've had Clairette de Die, you haven't really had Clairette. You had Muscat mostly. Clairette de Die is Muscat a Petits Grains with Clairette allowed in to the blend...at 25% max. You made the mistake of confusing Clairette the grape with Clairette the AOC; always fatal when you're trying to be simple and straightforward with anything French.

Mmmm, don't know about this.

I recently posted a note on a Clairette de Die that I was told (by the importer, Kermit Lynch Wine Merchants) was 100 percent Clairette Blanche. I could write this off to miscommunication between importer and consumer, except that Wink Lorch reported tasting a Clairette de Die Brut with 100 percent Clairette when she visited the estate. It might be the exception, but, evidently, there are exceptions . . .

Actually, to be pedantic and nitpicky (but not macho), if you've had Clairette de Die, you haven't really had Clairette. You had Muscat mostly. Clairette de Die is Muscat a Petits Grains with Clairette allowed in to the blend...at 25% max. You made the mistake of confusing Clairette the grape with Clairette the AOC; always fatal when you're trying to be simple and straightforward with anything French.

Mmmm, don't know about this.

I recently posted a note on a Clairette de Die that I was told (by the importer, Kermit Lynch Wine Merchants) was 100 percent Clairette Blanche. I could write this off to miscommunication between importer and consumer, except that Wink Lorch reported tasting a Clairette de Die Brut with 100 percent Clairette when she visited the estate. It might be the exception, but, evidently, there are exceptions . . .

And here is where the French will drive us crazy:

There's Clairette de Die Tradition (and by that is meant in the tradition methode dioise) which is what I was alluding to, Keith. That is defined as Muscat a PG with a maximum of 25% Clairette (and usually less).

Then there's Cremant de Die, which, as you and Mark correctly said, is mostly Clairette, referred to by Jancis Robinson as "flabby." "overweight" and "overworked". Telling choice of words there.

Then, of course, there's the Clairette du Bellegarde (virtually unknonw outside the immediate area) designation, and the Clairette du Languedoc designation. Those are Clairette Blanche. But to further complicate matters, sometimes Clairette can also be used locally to refer to Bourbolenc. There's also a Clairette Rose, and actual pink-skinned grape.

The one in the Languedoc that is referred to as Clairette Ronde is actually Ugni Blanc (I think; honestly, I'm so confused at this point, I can't tell anymore).

Oh, and it's possible to have a Cremant de Die with 100% Clairette. Also possible to have a Cremant de Die without any Clairette at all.

And here is where the French will drive us crazy:

There's Clairette de Die Tradition (and by that is meant in the tradition methode dioise) which is what I was alluding to, Keith. That is defined as Muscat a PG with a maximum of 25% Clairette (and usually less).

Then there's Cremant de Die, which, as you and Mark correctly said, is mostly Clairette, referred to by Jancis Robinson as "flabby." "overweight" and "overworked". Telling choice of words there.

Oh, and it's possible to have a Cremant de Die with 100% Clairette. Also possible to have a Cremant de Die without any Clairette at all.

Sorry, Hoke, close, but they've changed the rules recently for Crémant de Die and they are no longer allowed 100% Clairette ... it has to include at least 15% between them of Aligoté and Muscat ... and I'm sure it MUST have mainly Clairette in it .... whereas the old Clairette de Die Brut can still be - I think - but being phased out - 100% Clairette and this is what Keith M tasted from Domaine Achard-Vincent - definitely 100% Clairette!

Yes, they do drive us crazy ...

Oh, and I reckon if I've tasted Counoise and I'm sure I must have sometime, then it must be 9 varieties that I've tasted of the official - and originally listed here - 13 ...

Pedantry rules.

Aha. Thanks, Hoke. Things are a bit clearer now. I still have to try some of this Clairette de Die Tradition stuff--sounds interesting.

Confusing enough in any case, even without the rules changes that Wink refers to!

Gee Bill I feel rather inferior because I am only at 6! Time for a west coast trip to raid your cellar!
Best

Ruth

[Robin Garr]

All thirteen. If you visit Beaucastel a few times, you get a chance to taste a lot of them you might not otherwise encounter. Just don't ask me if I remember the differences between them.

I've done the Beaucastel tour a couple of times, Steve, but usually in my experience they've never trotted out more than a half-dozen. Checking my notes on a May 2002 tour, guide Mike Rijken sampled us on the 2001 GSM, Muscardin and Counoise, a total of only five.

Mark: You're technically correct about 14, but in Chateauneuf-du-Pape the count the Grenaches as one. Those sneaky French!

I've done the Beaucastel tour a couple of times, Steve, but usually in my experience they've never trotted out more than a half-dozen. Checking my notes on a May 2002 tour, guide Mike Rijken sampled us on the 2001 GSM, Muscardin and Counoise, a total of only five.

But how many of the 13/14 have you had as varietal wines, Robin? Inquiring minds want to know!

Aha. Thanks, Hoke. Things are a bit clearer now. I still have to try some of this Clairette de Die Tradition stuff--sounds interesting.

Confusing enough in any case, even without the rules changes that Wink refers to!

Well, maybe they're clearer for you, Keith. I'm still confused. And now Wink tells me that once I get close to understanding it, they'll just change the rules on me again.

Funny story:

Years ago I was at a meeting of an on-premise sales team. Mixed knowledge levels. At dinner we served a CdP, and I issued a challenge: anyone who can identify---correctly---the 13 different varieties allowed in CdP would take home a 6 liter bottle of wine I had. I gave them a time limit of 30 minutes.

All but one of the people sat there and gnawed away at the problem, desperately trying to scribble down all the varieties they could think of, figuring that whoever got the most of the total might take the prize. One person, who honestly did not know as much detail as most of the others, excused herself and stepped outside. She came back a few minutes later, and when I asked for the people to answer----she had all 13 correctly listed! She won.

One of the guys said, "She cheated! She went outside and called someone and got the answers!!!" I replied that I had not said anything about people not asking, and that I had not asked them to know....I had asked if they could successfully identify the 13. And that's all. Any limitations they placed, they placed on themselves. Therefore, she won, and she got the bottle.

And now, as Paul Harvey used to say, here's the rest of the story: Unbeknown to me at the time, this woman was dating one of my closest friends, a guy I had known for years back in Dallas. She called and told him her problem. Turns out another close friend of his and mine worked for the importer that brings in Beaucastel, so he had given this guy a lovely full-sized poster listing and picturing the 13 varieties. Same poster that I had, which I received from M. Perrin on a trip set up by our mutual buddy. My friend simply read off the list of varieties from the poster he was looking at.

Fast forward a few years: now said saleswoman no longer works for me. She is married to my friend. They both live here in Sonoma County. They have a winery in the Mayacamas Range (and make pretty damned good wine too). She is the winemaker. She still has that 6 liter bottle, and promises that I will get to share when she finally decides to open it.

She makes Syrah, and some various Syrah blends. And she couldn't for the life of her identify the 13 approved varieties of CdP. I know: I've asked her.

[Robin Garr]

But how many of the 13/14 have you had as varietal wines, Robin? Inquiring minds want to know!

Without looking it up, most but not all. Easier to name the two I'm pretty sure I have NOT had: Picardan and Vaccarèse, so make it 11.

Great story, Hoke.

And, to paraphrase Kurt Cobain, just because things are clearer doesn't mean I'm not still confused . . .

More importantly, what was the 6 liter bottle of wine?

More importantly, what was the 6 liter bottle of wine?

Ah. A meritage blend of all five Bordeaux varieties from a single vineyard in the Central Coast. From a particularly good year.

Probably wouldn't get your Eurocentric head spinnning, but it was one of her favorites.

All thirteen. If you visit Beaucastel a few times, you get a chance to taste a lot of them you might not otherwise encounter. Just don't ask me if I remember the differences between them.

I've done the Beaucastel tour a couple of times, Steve, but usually in my experience they've never trotted out more than a half-dozen. Checking my notes on a May 2002 tour, guide Mike Rijken sampled us on the 2001 GSM, Muscardin and Counoise, a total of only five.

Robin; I've been there three times, and tasted different wines each occasion, and the last time I was there, Francois escorted me, and asked what i wanted to taste, and I told him I was curious about the ones I hadn't had: Vaccarese, Terret Noir, Picardan.
Don't know if everyone is aware, but Tablas Creek, last I knew, was intending to bring the rest of the thirteen,not already here, to the US to propagate.

Don't know if everyone is aware, but Tablas Creek, last I knew, was intending to bring the rest of the thirteen,not already here, to the US to propagate.

And I think that we can trust them to not misidentify a Vaccarese cutting as Bourboulenc When we visited Tablas Creek, the highlight was the tour of the nursery. I'd heard about the operation, but seeing it in person was very impressive. Of course, this was a week after the Big One hit Paso, so just the fact that they were open at all was impressive.

Mark Lipton

Actually, to be pedantic and nitpicky (but not macho), if you've had Clairette de Die, you haven't really had Clairette. You had Muscat mostly. Clairette de Die is Muscat a Petits Grains with Clairette allowed in to the blend...at 25% max. You made the mistake of confusing Clairette the grape with Clairette the AOC; always fatal when you're trying to be simple and straightforward with anything French.

Hoke, Hoke, Hoke,
You gotta read what I wrote if you're going to engage in a macho pedant smackdown with me, old thing As you yourself have now noted, there's a world of difference between Clairette de Die and Cremant de Die, and in one of those delicious ironies that the INAO is so good at, if you want to taste Clairette in the Diois, you're better off with the Cremant, which I suspect was why that AOC was introduced in the first place.

Pedantically yours,
Mark Lipton

(For that, you're going to have to find a varietal Terret Noir for our next get-together)

Ah. A meritage blend of all five Bordeaux varieties from a single vineyard in the Central Coast. From a particularly good year..

And a particularly big size. Nice!

Five. In the most macho sense of that number.