WTN: Baha Men go to Beaujolais

[David M. Bueker]

2005 Jean-Paul Thevenet Morgon Vieilles Vignes
Who let the horse out? Hoof, hoof, hoof.

This is so bretty as to be essentially undrinkable, at least if you are looking to drink wine.

2005 Jean-Paul Thevenet Morgon Vieilles Vignes
Who let the horse out? Hoof, hoof, hoof.

This is so bretty as to be essentially undrinkable, at least if you are looking to drink wine.

What a bummer! The two 2004s I've opened so far were in great shape and I have one 06 and one 07 to open, so we'll have more data points soon.

David, you're not the 1st person (or the 2nd or 3rd) that I've seen give this one bad marks for excessive Brett, so there must be some bottle variation, because we went through 3 or 4 last year, and all of them were very nice. Yes, there was a touch of funk, but only that. I've encountered more Brett from some old Ridge Zins than I got off the ones we drank and enjoyed. Here are my notes from last year:

2005 J-P Thevenet Morgon Vieilles Vignes, 13% alc., $26.99: Ruby red, with a smoky tinge; very Gamay in character, with attractive earthy cherry and cranberry flavors and aromas and just a hint of the barnyard on the nose. Medium to medium full bodied, with fine balance, silky tannins and good acids. I’m not sure I’d want to age this more than a few years, because it’s pretty much right there right now.

Just my 2 oz.,

geo

[David M. Bueker]

I've had two bottles of this wine. The first was bretty but tolerable. This one was not.

This is what happens with minimal sulfur wines - the variation is extreme.

A wine bar here has had the Thevenet available for some time now. I have not found any brett in either the '05 or '07 (for some reason I don't think they ever got '06). Is it really random variation in what bottles are bretty, or can we attribute brett to some heat during e.g. transportation? I ask because I seem to hear more complaints of brett in e.g. Musar and other low sulfur wines from that side of the pond than here - even from people I know that don't shrink away from stinky wines. So can the Atlantic crossing be blamed, or is it really a random event where I have just been extremely lucky?

So can the Atlantic crossing be blamed, or is it really a random event where I have just been extremely lucky?

I am offering a $10,000 reward for the correct answer!

Seriously, it stands to reason that travel, like heat, accelerates whatever chemical changes would otherwise take place more slowly, so my guess would be that transatlantic travel would never actually cause brett to happen per se, but would accelerate the onset of brett that would take longer to develop in Europe...

[David M. Bueker]

So can the Atlantic crossing be blamed, or is it really a random event where I have just been extremely lucky?

I am offering a $10,000 reward for the correct answer!

Seriously, it stands to reason that travel, like heat, accelerates whatever chemical changes would otherwise take place more slowly

First of all you will neve have to give out that reward.

Secondly, travel, in and of itself is meaningless. It's the conditions a bottle is exposed to that matter. In the case of a low or no sulfur cuvee (I believe this one is low) there is a greater chance that at 60 degrees some brett may blossom. The 60 degree exposure (or higher) is more likely to happen the more the bottle travels around.

Short distances have inherently less opportunity for less than utterly pristine conditions.

From what I've read, I think that a short time at somewhat warm but not winekilling temps (6 hours on a dock in 73F weather) could easily drastically increase the growth of brett in a bottle.
Another factor is that there are many strains of brett, and apparently we are not equally sensitive to them. So it's possible that David and George could both be fairly sensitive to brett, but David is especially sensitive to this strain and George isn't. I think of myself as moderately brett sensitive. I've never really gotten brett in Havens Bourriquot. But there was a poster on old WLDG who said he didn't especially mind brett, but EVERY Havens wine made him gag, and Laube apparently feels same way about the Bourriquot. Other times I felt a bottle of Graves was so fecal I felt like I was wearing a sanitation department uniform, and others got nothing.

travel, in and of itself is meaningless.

Not true! It's basic chemistry that shaking a liquid accelerates whatever reactions result from its composition. Just as heat accelerates reactions, so does movement.

One other point not yet mentioned in this thread is that Thevenet prefers to bottle unfiltered, and a Bretty wine left unfiltered, and not kept quite cool, is likely to progress toward its own destruction. And of course no sulfur and unfiltered--double your pleasure, double your fun!

[David M. Bueker]

travel, in and of itself is meaningless.

Not true! It's basic chemistry that shaking a liquid accelerates whatever reactions result from its composition. Just as heat accelerates reactions, so does movement.

No, I am not heading into the travel shock theories again. No way.

travel, in and of itself is meaningless.

Not true! It's basic chemistry that shaking a liquid accelerates whatever reactions result from its composition. Just as heat accelerates reactions, so does movement.

No, I am not heading into the travel shock theories again. No way.

I don't think we're talking about travel shock (at least I'm not). I'm referring to ornery chemical reactions that take place over time happening a little faster as a result of shakin'.

I, too, don't want to waste time discussing something unproveable, but travel shock refers to supposedly short-lived changes that revert once the bottle settles down in its hew "home."

We'll never know if your Thevenet was exposed to higher temperatures on its way to the US, I'm just saying that another potential explanation, even if it came in a refrigerated container, was the effect of many days of roiling seas and bumpy roads.

[David M. Bueker]

And I seriously doubt that has anything to do with it.

Shall we debate corks versus screwcaps?

Shall we debate corks versus screwcaps?

Two days from now!

From what I've read, I think that a short time at somewhat warm but not winekilling temps (6 hours on a dock in 73F weather) could easily drastically increase the growth of brett in a bottle.
Another factor is that there are many strains of brett, and apparently we are not equally sensitive to them. So it's possible that David and George could both be fairly sensitive to brett, but David is especially sensitive to this strain and George isn't. I think of myself as moderately brett sensitive. I've never really gotten brett in Havens Bourriquot. But there was a poster on old WLDG who said he didn't especially mind brett, but EVERY Havens wine made him gag, and Laube apparently feels same way about the Bourriquot. Other times I felt a bottle of Graves was so fecal I felt like I was wearing a sanitation department uniform, and others got nothing.

I hear what you're saying Dale, but I don't think so. Believe me, I know Brett, and when it's excessive, it ain't good. The wine that David describes is nothing like the 3 or 4 that we enjoyed. All were lovely, some with some subtle barnyard qualities. These had a perfumed character that far outweighed any funk. I still maintain that our distributor lucked out and got a good batch of these, or at very least, I lucked out and got a good case for my retail establishemnt, which I plucked said bottles from.

Just my 2 oz.,

geo

Prompted by this thread, I explored my shelf of precious Beaujolais thinking I had this very wine. Close - a bottle of the 2006 ($23 from the Wine Library) which I opened tonight and shared with my wife over dinner . I think I fall into the Brett tolerant category, perhaps into the Brett liking category. Still, I like to think I can smell it when it is present, like it or not. If there was any Brett here, it was very much in the background to my nose anyway. Mostly it's lovely red fruit with a back note of herbacious spice on the nose, gorgeous bright see-through garnet to the eye, though slightly cloudy which I attribute to its being an unfiltered, unfined wine, and sexy silky legs. On the palate, bright red fruit, a touch of pittilance, nice acidity, snappy tannins, and a distinct minty finish. In a word lovely. My wife, who is sensitive to things in wine I am blind to, couldn't drink it. Brett?? I don't think so, but I can't say for sure. But it's a lot less fun to share what you think is a nice wine if your spouse hates it.

[David M. Bueker]

For the record - I am extremely brett tolerant. This particular bottle was beyond reason. How it got that way we will never know.

For the record - I am extremely brett tolerant. This particular bottle was beyond reason. How it got that way we will never know.

No peanut butter, though? I still remember the Loire Valley "organic" Gamay with overpowering peanut butter flavors

For the record - I am extremely brett tolerant. This particular bottle was beyond reason. How it got that way we will never know.

I think you explained most of it in your second post and others filled in the other main pieces.

Low/no SO2 opens the field to all sorts of microbiological action including the opportunistic production by the ubiquitous wild yeast of its range of products pre-bottling. No/low SO2 at bottling [not sure about Thevenet's precise regime although he's one of the original Jules Chauvet/Gang of 5] compounds the potential as does low/no filtration or use of a sterilant like Velcorin - which they wouldn't use and probably wasn't legal yet in the EU.
Bottle differences could be explained by different lots [for example Lapierre makes 3 versions of his basic Morgan, one of which has no sulphur and no filtration and requires special handling below 14oC. Temperature and a brett bloom probably played a major part too.

Since you couldn't drink it I hope for your sake that it was corked too so that with any luck it would have 'absorbed' another piece of random bad luck. It might be interesting to know how corked the wine would have had to have been for you to have noticed. From your description, pretty completely.
Oh and by the way Jamie Goode also found Thevenet’s Morgon Vieilles Vignes 2005 had too much brett

[David M. Bueker]

This would have had to be a stealth cooking as the cork was in great shape (no staining at all other than the requisite circle of wine at the very base (wine end) of the cork) & there were no underlying cooked aromas (though as you say they would have been ahrd to pick out had they been there).

This would have had to be a stealth cooking as the cork was in great shape (no staining at all other than the requisite circle of wine at the very base (wine end) of the cork) & there were no underlying cooked aromas (though as you say they would have been ahrd to pick out had they been there).

You using a rogue spellchecker David or is this an even more subtle response to my [very] little joke?

[David M. Bueker]

Neither - just expanding on the lack of obvious reasons for this wine's poor showing.

Besides temperature, oxygen ingress, concentration of SO2, (filtration) the possible presence of Brett (Brett population) in the wine, the pH of the wine will also be a factor to consider if the Brett becomes “active” or not.
You have to also consider how these wines are bottled, is the finished wine assembled and blended into a single large holding tank and then bottled or is it siphoned out of several barrels or smaller holding tanks or containers.

Salute

[David M. Bueker]

So true - and so many variables that we will never isolate the one that casued this bottle to smell like freshly deposited manure.