Auction buying do's and don'ts

[Jenise]

There's really only one do or don't I want to discuss here, but I have a feeling the conversation will wander so I made my title all-inclusive.

At a recent dinner with friends, auction buying came up and someone made a comment about "the dreaded 11 bottle situation". I blushed furiously, I'm sure, upon hearing that, as to that very dinner I had brought a white '94 dessert wine from Southern France of which I'd won 10 of the 11 bottles available. I brought the wine because the dinner was Cassoulet, and I'd wowed the boys at Friday lunch with one of these the day before and thought it quite a nifty little number. Now I'd not heard the 11-bottle thing before, but even without further elaboration the logic of that comment was instantly clear-- someone tried a bottle from that case, found serious fault, and scuttled the rest of the case to the second-hand market. As to why it hadn't dawned on me before, in my head there were so many scenarios in which that one bottle could have gone missing--I always picture the former owner of my wine being someone who died or had to give up drinking, and as someone who always tries a bottle from every new case purchased just to "meet the children", I have a cellar full of 11 bottle cases that are perfectly fine, thank you.

I'm wondering if others have been more careful, or less careful and sorry.

someone tried a bottle from that case, found serious fault, and scuttled the rest of the case to the second-hand market..

Seems like the safer assumption for risk-averse auction buyers. Although I can imagine a decent portion of wines from people who purchased and then discovered it was not to their taste.

Of course why they bought a whole case is another story. But I believe these people do exist!

I've always heard the "never buy 11 bottle lots" dictum, but while I think it's something to keep in mind, I don't consider it a hard and fast rule. Some situations where 11 bottles aren't a particular deterrent to me:

Recently at a major auction house, a series of lots from single collector had multiple 11 bottle lots,often with full cases of the same wine. It seemed a lot more likely that he decided to try one on release than he recently tried and decided to dump all his Bordeaux. Besides, almost certain the full cases were from same source, and the auction house is reputable. I'd be more worried re single 11 bottle lots on Winecommune. Or winebid, where there's no clue where wine came from

Another case is idiosyncratic/divisive wines that appeal to me. Even if someone tried one and decided to sell, that can be because of personal tastes, especially with controversial wines (various Pavies, Montroses, Pichon Lalandes, etc just within Bordeaux).

These are my auction do's and don'ts:
Label issues don't bother me. Moisture damaged labels are mostly a good sign (and drive down prices)

I'm very cautious re ullage and cork issues. I expect anything less than 20 years old to be at least baseneck, less than 30 to be at least TS, and older than than VHS/HS. That's for Bdx bottles, but assume similar guidelines for Burg shapes.

I pretty much avoid anything with seepage, other than lowball bids on stickies. I realize high fills in Burg and Germany can lead to seepage w/o any damage, but why risk it?

I avoid attending live auctions, I'd rather absentee bid w/o getting caught up in competitiveness.

On Winebid, never up your bid. Autobid the most you're willing to pay, and then if you lose, you lose!

Fun topic

I hate those folks who wait tobid til 3 minutes before the auction closes. They are the same ones, I imagine, who flash. They just have no balls to duke it out, but strike like a snake.

I agree with Dale; use Autobid to lock in your top price and then forget about it. If the snake hits 3 mins. before, well, then.. at least he/she (but most likely he) will be paying more than you were willing to.

11 bottle lots
The logic of the fear is reasonable, but I've yet to experience any such damaged wine. Perhaps my best auction bargain was a 23 bottle lot. In general I think dumping damaged stock falls well behind a) Tasted one, not to my taste and b) Opened one on arrival, never got round to drinking the others.

Online auctions
Yes this is more of the e-bay generation being prepared to gamble by bidding at the last second to secure the wine at a very low price. It's a strategy that has sound logic, but in some instances, if you really want the wine, then autobid means you'll only lose out by paying a bit extra, or being outbid above what you were willing to pay... not by being too slow on the button at 'gavel - 1 second' and missing the wine to a bid well below what you were willing to pay.

Live auctions
I'm more of a fan of turning up - I get to see labels (ok I'm also not fussed by these)/levels, contents of mixed cases, extra lots not listed, judging the dynamics of multiple lots of the same wine. It's also very good for going in with (say) half a dozen key bids, but also being prepared with another 20 or so wines, which you've priced up with 'bottom-feeding' limits. If any of those garner little interest, you may be able to pick up something of value for a very good price. This also removes the risk of putting 20 speculative bids in and winning them all! Finally by turning up, you save on delivery costs/risks and can take the wine home with you.

Other hints (for live auctions).
- Price anything up you're interested in, but then filter down again (and even again) to stuff you really would like. Price up c.f. the market, but also very much against your personal view of what would be a good price.
- Factor in risk (corked bottles can't be returned, is the wine damaged in other ways), reduced choice, logistics etc. There are still people who pay above shop price for certain wines at auction.
- Scratching nose, coughing etc. won't register a bid... when an auctioneer is scouring the room, try to make a definite move on your 1st bid. Be it a paddle, piece of paper, rolled up catalogue or just a hand - thrust it clearly in the air. If they don't spot it and the bidding has reached a temporary stop, then wave or even shout to attract the auctioneer's attention - that said they rarely miss any bidders. Once you've started bidding, when someone bids against you, the auctioneer will look you in the eye and ask if you want to bid to the next level. At this point more subtle 'bids' can be made, by a brief nod of the head or other such acknowledgment. If I don't want to go any further, I then shake my head.
- There is the odd incidence of dodginess in sellers/auctioneers/buyers. As a buyer, if you fear commission bids may not be submitted at the lowest price (e.g. You bid $200 by commission, next commission bid is $80, but the auctioneer knocks the lot down at $180 with no-one in the room bidding), then telephone bids are the best way to submit absentee bids.

... but most of all, have fun. They're interesting events with sometimes good humour and interesting characters (auctioneers and bidders).

regards

Ian

The only auctions that I've participated in have been HDH auctions where I place autobids online. Since HDH is very particular about issues of provenance and very upfront about ullage/label conditions, I just usually scrutinize the data to see if I'm interested. Also, like Dale (surprise surprise!) I am usually "shopping" for fringe market wines (off-year Bdx/Burg/Rhone, "tired" wines such as the recent '70 Ducru or a cache of '86 Cornas or oddball wines from the Loire, Spain or Italy) so I don't concern myself with the idea that the bottles were judged wanting. Also, I don't buy solid cases as a rule, so I'm more often looking at mixed cases of 3-4 different wines and the rule of 11 isn't an issue.

Mark Lipton

[Jenise]

Also, I don't buy solid cases as a rule, so I'm more often looking at mixed cases of 3-4 different wines and the rule of 11 isn't an issue.

Mark Lipton

Since the "rule of 11" is so prevalent, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the smaller lots of like wines aren't the result of the auction house breaking sets of 11 apart in order to escape that curse. We've probably all bought from such lots many times without knowing it.

Btw, the only real serious multiple dud I've ever purchased at auction was a case of 12 (oxidized white burgs, FWIW, before I heard about the pre-ox problem).

[Jenise]

I hate those folks who wait tobid til 3 minutes before the auction closes. They are the same ones, I imagine, who flash. They just have no balls to duke it out, but strike like a snake.

I agree with Dale; use Autobid to lock in your top price and then forget about it. If the snake hits 3 mins. before, well, then.. at least he/she (but most likely he) will be paying more than you were willing to.

I do that on Winebid. On Wine Commune, I'm somewhat more likely to be your snake. I certainly want the best deal possible, but also my sense of efficiency lives in mortal fear of ending up with 13 bottles, and having to pay $15 to ship that extra bottle. So depending on what I've already won, I'm looking to fill up that case (or not bid on any more, as the case may be). That is, if I'm home and have the luxury of watching it, otherwise I just throw out a few bids and hope for the best.

As a veteran of around 1000 successful Ebay auctions and countless live auctions, I always wonder why people say they hate snipers.

You snipe for two reasons. First, if you will be unavailable/asleep when the auction closes, you can use a sniping program. Second, by bidding at the last minute, you deny those equivocal people who can be stampeded into raising their bid just because they hate to get beat the chance to raise it yet again. I've seen a reasonable bid placed a day ahead and some newby chipping away at it in $10 increments. The original bidder got it, but had he waited and put in his same bid at the end, the chipper would have been out of luck for rebidding and the winner would have got his item for $80 less.

There is nothing ungentlemanly about sniping. The highest bid still wins. If you want to beat me on an auction, put in the highest bid. If you lose, don't come whining to me about sniping - you lost because you didn't value the item as much as I did. The result had absolutely nothing to do with sniping.

Bill,

Can you define "sniping".

Tom T.

Bill,

Can you define "sniping".

Well you get these water birds......

Sniping is putting in a bid at the last possible second. The ones James accused of 'striking like a snake', but doing what in my view is simply sensible.

[Jenise]

Bill,

Can you define "sniping".

Well you get these water birds......

Sniping is putting in a bid at the last possible second. The ones James accused of 'striking like a snake', but doing what in my view is simply sensible.

I agree, why drive up the price? It depends a lot on the site, though. Wine Commune is very dynamic, a lot like ebay. Winebid--aren't that many last-minute bidders there. People tend to throw out their best price and let it ride, and these days one's rarely overbid (at least on the non-trophy wines I'm usually interested in).

I agree that sniping (waiting to place a bid minutes before auction closes) is perfectly acceptable. I don't do it (because it's more effort), but the "sniper" only succeeds if he/she is willing to pay more than you. If your bid is at $40, but your autobid is $45, the sniper has to bid at least $50 to win.

I doubt the big auction houses ever split 11s, they'd still prefer the bigger lot (and I see plenty of 11s there). Maybe at winebid, but I don't think so (besides, they don't really do lots as such, and 11s are probably split by condition). Plus at WB 11 bottles of something might signify that they only sold one bottle last week. It might happen at WineCommune, but that's not really an auction house.

Mark, HDH is a nice place, but I don't think their investigation of provenance is any more than Zachys, Sothebys, or Christies. All are good about accurate descriptions of bottles , as is WineBid (actually for absentee, WB is the one where you can usually see bottle). I tend to maybe bid slightly less at WB because there are less "auction specialists" checking things out, but generally I've had good luck with WB as far as bottle condition. Plus the good thing about WB is they generally have single bottle lots, and have a lot of non-trophy stuff that would never be in a big house auction. WC is different, I seldom bid there, and if I do a fraction of what I'd pay to a real house.

EBay recently started letting licensed sellers sell wine in US on EBay. WS Pro sent me a notice that a wine I was searching for was available through eBay. A bit wary, I put in a bid about 65% (all-in)of what I'd bid on a place I was more comfortable with (though seller had 98 or 99% positive feedback) . I eventually lost. But while there, I visited the seller's other items (thinking maybe combined shipping). Ending up bidding on a midlevel '82 Bdx. I'd have paid $100-120 in store. Current bid was $20, so I bid I think $70. When I next looked it was a few hourss before end, and I was winning at $35. Cool! Then right before auction, I got a "bid cancellation notice" - apparently the item was "lost or broken." No more eBay for me.

There is another possible reason for 11 bottle lots that I can't see anyone having mentioned and that is that the auction company opens some bottles for a pre-sale tasting, thus leaving the 11 remaining bottles to be sold as one lot. At least this is the case with Christie's, which is the only auction company I have experience with.
Cheers,
Anders

Winebid--aren't that many last-minute bidders there. People tend to throw out their best price and let it ride, and these days one's rarely overbid (at least on the non-trophy wines I'm usually interested in).

An interesting tactic that I've noticed on Winebid - several times I've been outbid by someone who bid the same thing I did -later. How? They snipe with a bid for entire quantity available, shutting out those of us with smaller quantities requested. I had bid a whopping $5/bottle for three bottles (out of 12) of the one true "cult" wine, the '87 Renaissance (from the fabulous Yuba appellation), there were 2 uncontested. A sniper got all 12 for $5.

There is another possible reason for 11 bottle lots that I can't see anyone having mentioned and that is that the auction company opens some bottles for a pre-sale tasting, thus leaving the 11 remaining bottles to be sold as one lot. At least this is the case with Christie's, which is the only auction company I have experience with.
Cheers,
Anders

Most houses do some sampling for a good idea of a cellar, but most try to avoid breaking cases and use odder lots. But they might do a single bottle out of a case if someone was consigning say only 3 cases of OWC Bdx, especially if they didn't have long term documentation.

Mark, HDH is a nice place, but I don't think their investigation of provenance is any more than Zachys, Sothebys, or Christies. All are good about accurate descriptions of bottles , as is WineBid (actually for absentee, WB is the one where you can usually see bottle). I tend to maybe bid slightly less at WB because there are less "auction specialists" checking things out, but generally I've had good luck with WB as far as bottle condition. Plus the good thing about WB is they generally have single bottle lots, and have a lot of non-trophy stuff that would never be in a big house auction. WC is different, I seldom bid there, and if I do a fraction of what I'd pay to a real house.

Dale,
Sorry if you inferred from my post that I was singling out HDH's practices. If anything, long-established houses like Sotheby's and Christie's are arguably superior in their due diligence (one can hardly take issue with a Michael Broadbent or Serena Sutcliffe passing their pronouncement on a lot of wine you're interested in). I was thinking more of Winecommune and Ebay (in those jurisidictions where they sell wine). Interesting story about Ebay, BTW.

Mark Lipton

one can hardly take issue with a Michael Broadbent or Serena Sutcliffe passing their pronouncement on a lot of wine you're interested in

It worked for Rodenstock

An interesting variation of the online/silent bidding system used here (in Australia) is the "last highest bid/seller reserve plus a dollar rule". For instance, a wine has a reserve/last bid of $50 and you bid $80. If there's no further bids, you're the winning bidder at $51. However, it only takes one other person to apply the same overbidding technique and then you're both/all paying big bucks for your vino. Saw it happen at an auction some time back over a case of 1990 Dom Perignon. Two buffoons bid $1000/bottle at almost the same time right at the death of an online auction. The dude who pressed the enter button first paid very dearly indeed for the privelege of doing so. The going price at the time was around a couple of hundred. Caveat emptor.

David, that is basically the same as Ebay, although the bid increment may not be a nice unit like $1 (I've won bids by $0.50!).

Anyone that bids sky high is a moron and deserves what happens to them. He should bid whatever he is willing to pay and no more.

I have seen live auctions where the auctioneer runs up the bidding until the guy bidding for the absentee stops, at which point the auctioneer apologizes and says he thought he had a bid he didn't and tells the absentee agent that he is still the high bidder - now at the maximum the absentee was willing to go. Crooked people everywhere......

[Jenise]

Winebid--aren't that many last-minute bidders there. People tend to throw out their best price and let it ride, and these days one's rarely overbid (at least on the non-trophy wines I'm usually interested in).

An interesting tactic that I've noticed on Winebid - several times I've been outbid by someone who bid the same thing I did -later. How? They snipe with a bid for entire quantity available, shutting out those of us with smaller quantities requested. I had bid a whopping $5/bottle for three bottles (out of 12) of the one true "cult" wine, the '87 Renaissance (from the fabulous Yuba appellation), there were 2 uncontested. A sniper got all 12 for $5.

I'm not the one who stole that from you but I've snatched many a lot this way.