What is your top "off-beat" grape?

[Robin Garr]

But have you had a really good Chambourcin?

As an Eastern US wine writer and wine judge for 25 years or more, I've had several hundred Chambourcins in the US, a few in Canada and a handful in Australia. And maybe some unlabeled stuff in France.

I do not consider it a "noble" wine grape. At best a compromise for use in places where it's not economically feasible to grow vinifera ... but they should probably just give it up and plant blackberries in those places instead.

Savagnin; it's the grape used to make vin jaune in the Jura.

Also fer servadou, which is usually a bit player in Madiran and Cabardes, but is also bottled on its own by Domaine Genouillac.

The new one for me (before I went into this current can't drink phase) was vermentino and the whites from Sardina. I had just started to notice a flurry of these charming whites turning up around town.

Oh, you can keep your red hybrids, but I have a weakness for a good Vignoles (aka Ravat 51).

But have you had a really good Chambourcin?

I've had some that other people consider good, but I didn't care for them. As red hybrids go it is one of the better ones, but what Robin says....

Hoke wrote;
……. Marzemino doesn't suck.

Mozart will agree with that.

Salute

Has anyone mentioned Symphony? Had a glass tonight with coconut chicken breast, very nice. Bravo Ironstone.

But have you had a really good Chambourcin?

As an Eastern US wine writer and wine judge for 25 years or more, I've had several hundred Chambourcins in the US, a few in Canada and a handful in Australia. And maybe some unlabeled stuff in France.

I do not consider it a "noble" wine grape. At best a compromise for use in places where it's not economically feasible to grow vinifera ... but they should probably just give it up and plant blackberries in those places instead.

I wasn't claiming that its a 'noble' grape, but I believe 1. that it has its own merits, even in the company of vinifera, and 2. it gives regions like the Midwest a quality grape with uniqueness, identity, and the chance to make wines with more than just curiosity value. The Midwest, for example, will never be able to compete even with that small amount of vinifera it grows, and much of the rest of the world would not even consider planting Chambourcin - which means the Midwest, e.g., has the chance to make something of the grape, and of the region itself in the process.

And if any of you doubt the charms of Chambourcin, go here: http://www.pirtlewinery.com/ and order some. I've had Chambourcin from around the Midwest, and in my humble opinion, you haven't truly experienced Chambourcin until you've had Pirtle's Chambourcin. And their Mead is excellent as well; and their Apple wine (aged in used brandy barrels from the nearby McCormick distillery). I admit I love this winery and am somewhat biased, but rest assured I have no vested interest, and nothing to gain from recommending it, except to spread the love!

Wow, really? From where? The only still dry Pinot Meuniers I've had were from Germany and they offered little of interest to make me want to explore the grape further. Good to hear there is promise after all . . .

Keith,
Not Dan, but only play him in the movies!!
AdamLee makes about the best one I've had at Siduri. Much like his Pinots, but a little more earthy, a little more
clunky. But pretty tasty.
Tom

Tom hit it right on the head. Adam Lee's PM Van der Kamp bottled under the Novy label is an excellent value, which reminds me that I need to order some of the '07. I'm interested to see how his Nebbiolo turns out. That would be a real rarity: a good Nebbiolo not from Piedmont.

Oh, how could I forget? Durella, the grape that makes Durello, which would be a serious competitor to prosecco, except I don't think there's very much of it made. The region is Lessini, to the northeast of Soave. Dama del Rovere (the Pra family of Soave fame) and Marcato both make really nice, crisp, aromatic sparklers. I'm sure there are others, just haven't run across them yet...

Oh, how could I forget? Durella, the grape that makes Durello, which would be a serious competitor to prosecco, except I don't think there's very much of it made. The region is Lessini, to the northeast of Soave. Dama del Rovere (the Pra family of Soave fame) and Marcato both make really nice, crisp, aromatic sparklers. I'm sure there are others, just haven't run across them yet...

I really liked the Durello I had from Cantina di Montecchia di Crosara, but I don't believe I've encountered any others. Very crisp indeed.

Tom hit it right on the head. Adam Lee's PM Van der Kamp bottled under the Novy label is an excellent value, which reminds me that I need to order some of the '07. I'm interested to see how his Nebbiolo turns out. That would be a real rarity: a good Nebbiolo not from Piedmont.

Awww, Dan... there's a lot of good Nebbs not from the Piedmonte. Some come from Gattinara/Gehmme. My favorites are from the Valtelline. And some tasty ones from Calif. Adam's is one of the best,,,but speaks a lot of Siduri/Novy winemaking..but still definitely Nebb. Palmina makes some good ones. And one of the best is DueVigne...worth tracking down. Granted, some of the greatest Nebbs come from Piedmonte...and some of the most ugly ones as well.
Tom

I can't believe this thread has gotten to three pages with nobody mentioning chardonnay, cabernet sauvignon, or zinfandel.

[David M. Bueker]

I can't believe this thread has gotten to three pages with nobody mentioning chardonnay, cabernet sauvignon, or zinfandel.

You did.

A lot of what happens in threads like this is that we get into whether or not a grape is "worthy" (see the brief Chambourcin discussion) versus peoples' personal favorites (which I think is more the point). The key test for me in this kind of dicussion is whether or not I have to use the "master qualifier" in descibing the wine. When I drink Chambourcin (and I have had more than a few) I normally have to say: "that's pretty good for a Chambourcin."

I am not trying to pick on Chambourcin here (I like the ones from Chaddsford in PA), but rather express why I consider Scheurebe to be my "top" offbeat grape - I virtually never have to use the "pretty good for a scheurebe" statement.

Hi,

if it is not clear whether Scheurebe is an off-grape, how about Huxelrebe. I have had very nice Beerenauslese and Trockenbeerenauslese from that (Pfalz and Rheinhessen) .

Regards Winfried

[David M. Bueker]

I like Huxelrebe, but only as an auslese or higher wine. I have never had a Huxelrebe that I thought was worth drinking at the kabinett or spatlese level, whereas Scheurebe does very well across the spectrum.

When I drink Chambourcin (and I have had more than a few) I normally have to say: "that's pretty good for a Chambourcin."

[Sigh] . . . .Where's the love? I have occasional said "Chambourcin can do better than this," but I've certainly never used the 'master qualifier.' Like I said, I like Chambourcin for its own merits - I think it's a good grape, not merely 'good for a hybrid.' 'Fantastic for a hybrid' would be more like it. But you know, I think the reason I appreciate it so much is because the first one I was introduced to was an excellent one (Pirtle Winery, see above), and having seen what the grape is capable of, I more often than not find charm in the various ones I've tried. Mind you, my intent is not to start a debate to establish its merits, or defend my opinion - I like it, and that's all that matters to me. But it is certainly 'off-beat,' and there wasn't a vinifera/non-vinifera qualifier to the thread.

Mind you, I'm not generally speaking all that fond of hybrids, but having lived my life in various parts of the Midwest, I've been exposed to them, and learned to appreciate the better ones. But my special affection is reserved only for Chambourcin, although I am fond of good Traminette (the good ones are like super-spicy GT), and I've had enough good Vignoles to appreciate it as well. OTOH, Foch always gets the 'master qualifier' from me, and I do sometimes question why it exists. Same for Chardonnel, although my principle complaint there is not so much that it's bad, but simply that it's boring. I once had some hope for Seyval Blanc, but now I'm not so sure about it.

[David M. Bueker]

I started my wine journey in Virginia in the '80s, so I was exposed to more than my fair share of hybrid wines. Back then there was a lot more focus on hybrids than there is now.

I was just never all that impressed, even when I was totally new to the hobby.

but having lived my life in various parts of the Midwest, I've been exposed to them, and learned to appreciate the better ones. But my special affection is reserved only for Chambourcin

Ryan, I think you and I have been here before. I am glad that you like Chambourcin and I must admit that Chambourcin is my favorite red hybrid. It also has potential to be made in other styles as some work was done in Maryland on drying it and making it in an Amarone has proven. My problem is that I just don't like Chambourcin as much as I do Cabernet Franc. In the midwest, if you have a site that can grow good Chambourcin then you most likely have a site that can grow good Cabernet Franc. Every time I taste a Chambourcin, even a good one, I find myself thinking why did they not grow Cabernet Franc.

Understand that I am not challenging what you like, I just find the living in the midwest arguement when it comes to Chambourcin somewhat hard to accept.

Tom hit it right on the head. Adam Lee's PM Van der Kamp bottled under the Novy label is an excellent value, which reminds me that I need to order some of the '07. I'm interested to see how his Nebbiolo turns out. That would be a real rarity: a good Nebbiolo not from Piedmont.

Awww, Dan... there's a lot of good Nebbs not from the Piedmonte. Some come from Gattinara/Gehmme. My favorites are from the Valtelline. And some tasty ones from Calif. Adam's is one of the best,,,but speaks a lot of Siduri/Novy winemaking..but still definitely Nebb. Palmina makes some good ones. And one of the best is DueVigne...worth tracking down. Granted, some of the greatest Nebbs come from Piedmonte...and some of the most ugly ones as well.
Tom

Tom,

Gattinara and Ghemme are still in Piedmont, just a lot further north than Barolo.

My new unusual favorite is Fumin, from the Valle d'Aosta. Deep color, spicy/meaty/berryish/herbal aroma, exciting.

Tom,
Gattinara and Ghemme are still in Piedmont, just a lot further north than Barolo.

Yup....correct. But when I think most people mention Piedmonte Nebb, they're thinking Barolo/Barbaresco. That was the assumption I was making.
Tom

Savagnin; it's the grape used to make vin jaune in the Jura.

Also fer servadou, which is usually a bit player in Madiran and Cabardes, but is also bottled on its own by Domaine Genouillac.

Had an outstanding blend with a heavy dose of fer servadou from Gaillac. Labortain, or something like thAt.

My new unusual favorite is Fumin, from the Valle d'Aosta. Deep color, spicy/meaty/berryish/herbal aroma, exciting.

Is this any relation to the Furmint found in Hungary and other E. European countries?

Fumin is believed to be an indigenous grape of the Aosta Valley of Northern Italy. IMHO the wine produced from Fumin could be very much “Syrah-like”

Salute