WTN + Q: Spinetta and lumberyard Barberas?

I have a horrible, guilty secret that I have sometimes mentioned in passing on these wine fora: I am not as nauseated by spoofy Barbera as I am by spoofy other wines. In fact, I have been known not to spit out in disgust the oaky, over-the-top, in-your-face Viettis! I know that by mentioning this dirty secret I will lose my reputation, but I have never claimed that I would be consistent - except in the consistency of this aberration to my usual tastes.

Though I don't mind the occasional glass of Vietti, I have found Spinetta's Barberas to smell more of sawdust and lumberyards than wine. But oddly enough La Spinetta (Rivetti) Barbera d'Asti Ca' di Pian 2006 was almost drinkable! Yes, it is still oaky and full of dark, plummy fruit and sucrosity reminiscent more of spoofy Pomerol than spoofy Barbera, but it wasn't the undrinkable lumberyard I remembered Spinetta to have been from earlier vintages. On some sniffs, there was even a refreshing lift to the scent. The palate is big and burly but the surprise was that after the initial shock to the system from the size and power, the wine finishes refreshingly. It doesn't finish with the unctuous toffee flavours I used to find with this producer, but it finishes - despite the producer and the ripe year - with the tang I hope to see from the grape!

Are the lumberyard producers of Barbera finally toning down the oak? If even perhaps the worst offender seems to have calmed down, is there hope for all the others? Despite being almost positive about the wine, I have to admit that it was still a bit much for me and that Dürer's contribution was what I enjoyed most.

[David M. Bueker]

I think La Spinetta has backed off the spoofing just a bit lately.

One of the funniest things (in a dry sort of way) with "spoofy" Barbera was when I visited our (former) facility in Torino, Italy. A group of us went to dinner, and two of the Italians ordered wine. Each one wanted to show me what they thought was the best Barbera, as I had mentioned that I had an interest in the wine. One of them selected a Vietti Reserva, and the other one selected a La Spinetta. We ended up having a very long discussion about ripe and oaky Italian wine where they were on the pro side and I was on the con side.

I like Giacomo Bologna's Barberas. I know that makes me a bad person. I'm sorry, nobody's perfect.

David, funny story, indeed. Though I do tolerate spoof in Barbera more than I ought, I do still prefer the more natural products.

Oswaldo, I haven't written about Bologna much because I think (but am not sure) that the company I work for part time has some contact with them. I might be wrong there, but I think they seem to have toned down the oak, too? At least I find them quite a bit more drinkable now than I did the past releases.

Has Vietti changed their style? I enjoyed their Barolos very much in the 1980s ('82 and '85 vintages) but haven't had anything more recent. Those Barolos didn't strike me as overly manipulated.

-Paul W.

Since when is “bulk” maturing the wines in stainless steel more “natural” than “bulk” maturing in oak cask? Besides using “modern” fermentation techniques (most likely a temperature controlled roto-fermenter was probable used). The big difference is instead of “bulk” aging the wine as a “single” batch in a large oak cask, the wine is “bulk” aged as many batches in smaller oak barrels, each evolving slightly different. Until, the day comes when the winemaker thinks the wine is ready to be reunited. At which time, the wine is allowed to “rest” for some time so that the now numerous components could intermingle into one again and its ready to be bottled.
An oak barrel is much more than just a “seasoning” to a wine; IMHO if producing an “intense and concentrated” wine is your goal, the oak barrel is the most natural and “ideal” container.

Salute

Interesting. So is it just with Barbera that you have this reaction or are there other grapes as well?

Otto, haven't tried any recent vintages, but intend to visit them in November, so will check up on the oak.

Since when is “bulk” maturing the wines in stainless steel more “natural” than “bulk” maturing in oak cask? Besides using “modern” fermentation techniques (most likely a temperature controlled roto-fermenter was probable used). The big difference is instead of “bulk” aging the wine as a “single” batch in a large oak cask, the wine is “bulk” aged as many batches in smaller oak barrels, each evolving slightly different. Until, the day comes when the winemaker thinks the wine is ready to be reunited. At which time, the wine is allowed to “rest” for some time so that the now numerous components could intermingle into one again and its ready to be bottled.
An oak barrel is much more than just a “seasoning” to a wine; IMHO if producing an “intense and concentrated” wine is your goal, the oak barrel is the most natural and “ideal” container.

Salute

Victor
To be fair I don't think the thrust is oak vs stainless steel. More high toast new french oak barriques vs. more traditional old slovenian oak botti.
regards
Ian

[David M. Bueker]

One of the problems with "traditional" is that things are traditional because that's what was available at the time.

If someone had thought to use new, toasted, French oak barrels in 1803 (to pick a year) we would never even have this conversation about Barbera.

Since when is “bulk” maturing the wines in stainless steel more “natural” than “bulk” maturing in oak cask? Besides using “modern” fermentation techniques (most likely a temperature controlled roto-fermenter was probable used). The big difference is instead of “bulk” aging the wine as a “single” batch in a large oak cask, the wine is “bulk” aged as many batches in smaller oak barrels, each evolving slightly different. Until, the day comes when the winemaker thinks the wine is ready to be reunited. At which time, the wine is allowed to “rest” for some time so that the now numerous components could intermingle into one again and its ready to be bottled.
An oak barrel is much more than just a “seasoning” to a wine; IMHO if producing an “intense and concentrated” wine is your goal, the oak barrel is the most natural and “ideal” container.

Salute

Victor
To be fair I don't think the thrust is oak vs stainless steel. More high toast new french oak barriques vs. more traditional old slovenian oak botti.


regards
Ian

I am with Otto in liking "natural" flavours, i.e. wine flavours; this is what one gets with stainless steel, old Slovenian oak botti, barriques more than once used as well as some neutral new barriques (perhaps Otto might draw the line before these?).

I am against barriques being used to provide a flavouring additive because I don't like the taste of wood, caramel, etc. and would be against it whether the practice had initiated in 1803 or, as is the case, about 3 decades ago.

The “newer” the barrel, and if it is “raw” (un-toasted), the more “oak aromas” (actual wood aromas) could be picked up by the wine. Maybe the process of sealing the barrel and the initial cleaning and rinsing process of the barrel will remove some of the actual oak aromas (actual wood aromas) that can be imparted into the wine. Generally after 3 or 5 vintages (or maybe as Tim suggested its best to say usage of the barrel) it is not considered “new”. It is common to use “new” barrels for fermentation first before using them as “bulk” storage container. Again the initial fermentation will “break in” the barrel. The toasting of the barrel actually diminishes the barrels ability to impart “oak aromas” (actual wood aromas). The process of toasting the barrel if done slowly and at proper temperatures (for the desired degree of toast and penetration) actual “burns off” the “oak aromas” (actual wood aromas).
Some grape varieties have a “nice” affinity to oak, IMHO Barbera falls into this category. In some years however they have a greater affinity to the oak influence than other years. Maybe in some years you can only keep the wine in a “new” oak barrel for maybe only 4-6 months and then rack into an “older” more “neutral” barrel for the remaining bulk barrel maturation period.
Personally I have nothing against the fruit forward, stainless steel aged Barberas, and they could be very pleasant wines. But personally some of them I find “one-dimensional” and on the “lighter” side (for my palate anyway). I favor the oak aged Barberas (if in balance and together), finding them very appealing to the eyes (darker and richer in color), concentrated, nice mouth-feel and texture (just “bigger” and a little more interesting).

Salute

There's some nice parsing going on here! Victor, you were careful to distinguish the taste of oak from the taste imparted by the toast, something that I am sure gets wrapped up into one all the time in tasting notes (I, for one, have never shown the finesse to distinguish!). But there must be some relation, since the taste of toast will not be abstract, but of that particular barrel's (grain and seasoning and split v. cut) oak when toasted.

I wasn't aware that toasting reduced the taste of oak as oak, which makes sense, but it increases the taste of toasted oak, so there may be a net gain in the combo of these two oak-related sensations.

As an aside, DRC, while always 100% new oak, is apparently one of the few that adopt a very light toast, that supposedly gets integrated sooner. The "classic" toast, according to Radoux, is "medium plus."

As a second aside, I agree with Tim's separation between usage for flavor and other usages and would only say that usage for flavor, while something many of us here deplore, has exceptions that prove the rule (like white burgundy (when used judiciously, of course).

Interesting. So is it just with Barbera that you have this reaction or are there other grapes as well?

Pretty much only Barbera. But to be clear, I do prefer Barberas like Massolino's basic one that sees ageing in only neutral vessels.

Hi Oswaldo,
It sure helps if you’re an amateur winemaker and in your “wine cellar” there is an assortment of oak barrels of various ages, types and degrees of toast. Mind you this is a “legal” operation for family consumption only, the barrels vary from (2) 10 gals, (3) 30 gals (Bordeaux style) and (2) 34 gals (Burgundy style).
Now I have tried a “new” barrel made by World Cooperage, with medium to heavy toast. The first thing (after inspected the barrel, sealing the barrel and cleaning, rinsing, and sterilizing the barrel) you have to decide, is does the wine have enough “stuffing” to handle the barrel. This is extremely difficult, but the only thing you can do is experiment. Another thing to consider, are you going to place the wine into the barrel “dirty” (right after alcoholic fermentation) or let the wine undergo MLF (malo-lactic fermentation) and start “settling down” before placing it into the barrel. I’ve experimented with both techniques. Basically the “cleaner” the wine is when you place it into a barrel the “faster” it picks up the “oak characteristics”, but for some reason with the passing of time (possible due to evaporation, addition of top up reserve wine and eventual the “pressed” wine, natural micro-oxygenation, and the chemical reactions taking place between the components of the wine and components of the oak barrel the oak characteristic seem to diminish somewhat. Now the year I bought the 34 gal (Burgundy style) barrel with medium to heavy toast, I made 30 gal (plus) Barbera and 60 gal (plus) Zinfandel (these are our “house wines” and I alternate the amounts every year). The Barbera was the fruitier and tannic of the two wines so that’s the wine we decided to put into the medium to heavy toasted barrel. After about six months the wine started picking up some “oak characteristics” but really nothing to be alarmed about, the wine still had fruit and was more or less still balanced (well in our opinion anyway). The tannins went from “young” to “sweet” (ya, I said sweet-that mocha chocolate component). The most disturbing thing was my wine was “losing” its wonderful color and not deepening like we were accustomed too (like the Zinfandel). If it wasn’t for the fact we were “losing” color, I would of simply racked the Barbera out and switch it with one of the Zinfandels. So to make a long story short I racked the Barbera out of the medium heavy toasted barrel and after rinsing and cleaning repeated times I placed the same Barbera back into the barrel. It remained there for another 6 months (12 months total). Like I said after the passing of time the “oak characteristic” diminished somewhat, the tannins remained soft and on the “sweet” side. The “color” of the wine was “restored” somewhat (and I credit this to the Barbera “pressed” wine held in reserve for top-up purposes and final blending). By the time it came to prep and prepare this wine for bottling it was “ready to go” out of the gate. Well that barrel was taken apart (the head removed), the inside of the barrel scrapped, put back together re-sealed, cleaned, rinsed and sterilized, kept into service for another 5-6 years with no other problems. Eventually it was cut in half and became one of my best tomato planters. The loss of color I found out latter was most likely due to the higher carbon content of the medium-heavy toast. I’ll stick with the light toast or light-medium toast and never go back to medium-heavy toast for my reds.

Salute

Thanks for the insight into your personal experience, Victor, very interesting!

My amateur reactions on reading about your experience (all, I'm sure, things you've though about extensively):
- there must be non-empirical ways to measure "stuffing" in the must. Assuming one can agree on what it is, exactly. Must be some combination of polyphenols, pH, sugar, etc.
- in the case of a must with insufficient acidity where the winemaker tries to retain acidity by inhibiting malo, with SO2 or cold fermentation, the wine would just have to go into the barrel "dirty" and, therefore, pick up the oak characteristic more slowly.
- the reduction in oak characteristics that you've observed over the span of just a few months in the barrel must be a shorter term version of the "integration" that one hopes to see (in the bottle) in, say, a good Bordeaux at around year 10, give or take.
- your barbera's ability to handle the oak better than the zin may not be intrisic to the varietal but a result of the particular grapes/provenance that you used.
- funny, color hardly concerns me compared to the olfactory and degustatory elements (maybe that's why I only note it in my WTNs when it's unusual), so that alone would not have made me do anything different (as long as it isn't off the wall).
- interesting to read how press wine can be helpful to you when it appears almost despised by "major" winemakers and is usually sold off.

Take care!

Oswaldo wrote:
-interesting to read how press wine can be helpful to you when it appears almost despised by "major" winemakers and is usually sold off.

Well that will depend upon your definition of “pressed” and “free-run”. For me “free-run” is the wine that comes out of the fermentation vat freely prior to sending the remaining wine and pomace to the press. The “pressed” wine is from only a slight pressing in a hand-screw basket press. For the most part, most “high” volume commercial winemakers would pump what ever they could out of their fermentation tanks send to a bladder press, slightly press (so they say) and consider this mixture of say 80% “free-run” and 20% slightly “pressed” all “free-run”.
By the term “dirty”, all I was referring to was the amount of sediment and lees one wants to “fall-out” of solution clinging to the inside of the barrel. Surely the presence of sediment or lees (yeast or bacteria cells, dead or alive) will surely effect or maybe even alter how the wine components react with the oak components.
Color and appearance is the first thing one looks at before drinking or eating anything.

Salute