All Muscadet should be screwcapped.

During my recent visit to London to attend to family affairs, I was very fortunate to meet up with my dear friend Nicos at RJs in S Kensington. He was kind enough to gift me a bottle of the `02 Luneau-Papin Excelsior Muscadet.
Last night I joined some staff from DeVines wine store at the Grill to sample some newly-arrived Loire reds. Thought my LP would go great with some shellfish?

WTN: `02 Luneau-Papin Excelsior Muscadet.

Amazing color of medium straw with highlighted greenish tints. Don`t see many like this.
Very minerally upfront on opening, crushed sea-shells,lime peel, "musk-melon Bob" thought Nick my pal. I silently wondered if this one was corked as I asked what musk melon was.
Very dry, bracing acidity, just the way I want my Muscadet. Long lime finish, very citrussy, went great with deep-fried oysters.
I suggested we put the bottle aside for when the other 3 join us. Corked was the instant cry when they arrived an hour later. They were right, what a transformation on the nose......and what a pity.

Ugh. Sorry to hear that.

(The more wine that's under screwcap, the better for me. Thank heavens for producers like Christoffel, Gunderloch, Hirsch and Inman...)

Yes, what a shame.

Bob et al,

As sometimes happens, I will be the dissenting voice here. I am not at all sure that the wine in question was corked. I would suggest that it was simply quite dead. Most of even the very best Muscadet wines, including those of Luneau-Papin are destined for early drinking - that is to say, two to four years from the vintage. I cannot help but wonder if the seven year old Muscadet you sampled was not simply well past its peak and showing signs of oxidation and caremelization.

As to screw-caps..i shall keep my mouth firmly shut in this particular instance.

est
Rogov

[David M. Bueker]

AS a Muscadet non-ager I will say that this wine should certainly not have been dead. It was actually a very late release.

Most of even the very best Muscadet wines, including those of Luneau-Papin are destined for early drinking - that is to say, two to four years from the vintage.

??

Where do you get this information.

I don't think the winemaker would agree.

Most of even the very best Muscadet wines, including those of Luneau-Papin are destined for early drinking - that is to say, two to four years from the vintage.

??

Where do you get this information.

I don't think the winemaker would agree.

Yes, I'm going to pile on here. This sounds a lot like Wine Advocate's comment a few years ago that claimed Huet's Vouvrays should be consumed in the next couple of years. Whence art thou?

And Bob, if the bottle wasn't corked when you opened it, I doubt it 'became' that way later. Any corked bottle I've ever had has been corked from the beginning. Brett can grow (or blowoff), oxidised character can grow, but cork? If it didn't have it, it ain't goin' get it.

And Bob, if the bottle wasn't corked when you opened it, I doubt it 'became' that way later. Any corked bottle I've ever had has been corked from the beginning. Brett can grow (or blowoff), oxidised character can grow, but cork? If it didn't have it, it ain't goin' get it.

Have you never missed it on the first smell/taste? I think we were discussing last week that the corkiness does grow in intensity as the wine has more exposure to air, so I could see that happening. But only for a very quick taste when the bottle is first opened, I agree that it doesn't mysteriously emerge after 3 hours of air.

And Bob, if the bottle wasn't corked when you opened it, I doubt it 'became' that way later. Any corked bottle I've ever had has been corked from the beginning. Brett can grow (or blowoff), oxidised character can grow, but cork? If it didn't have it, it ain't goin' get it.

Have you never missed it on the first smell/taste? I think we were discussing last week that the corkiness does grow in intensity as the wine has more exposure to air, so I could see that happening. But only for a very quick taste when the bottle is first opened, I agree that it doesn't mysteriously emerge after 3 hours of air.

Well, do you think this could be based on sensitivity to TCA? For me, my threshold is fairly large: I can sense the egregious examples and the mid-level ones, but for some lesser ones I am sure I miss. But for the bottles that I've detected as corked, I tend to find it very quickly. Once I've pegged a wine as such and gone back to it, I may sense it right away as overpowering, but I think the contamination would be the same, but I could see that people would think it intensified over that same period.

[David M. Bueker]

Many times I have opened a wine, found it maybe a little off & after it warms/changes a bit in the glass noticed the TCA even more.

Happened on Monday with Terry Theise. The wine was very cold & didn't show corky character until it warmed up a bit.

Many times I have opened a wine, found it maybe a little off & after it warms/changes a bit in the glass noticed the TCA even more.

Happened on Monday with Terry Theise. The wine was very cold & didn't show corky character until it warmed up a bit.

Piling on here, I quite often have the experience that a newly opened bottle is a borderline is it/isn't it corked wine. Usually, after 30 minutes or so, the question will be resolved, typically in the affirmative. Keep in mind that TCA is quite non-volatile with a boiling point upwards of 200°C, so as many of the volatiles evaporate what is left, increasingly, is the TCA. Lucky us...

And Rogov: I had a bottle of the '02 Semper Excelsior Clos des Noelles in February and it was still very much alive after several hours. Rahsaan and I also shared a bottle of the 1990 Luneau-Papin L D'Or in London 2 years ago and it was still far from dead. I agree that much of what's made in Muscadet isn't made for the long haul, but some of Luneau-Papin and Marc Ollivier's wines age very nicely, thank you.

Mark Lipton

Most of even the very best Muscadet wines, including those of Luneau-Papin are destined for early drinking - that is to say, two to four years from the vintage.

Where do you get this information. I don't think the winemaker would agree.

Rahsaan, Hi.....

From reading winemakers' notes over the course of quite a few decades I'm quite sure that at least some would disagree. Alas, but from 40+ years of tasting experience I would have to say that those Muscadet wines that are capable of aging for 4 - 7 years are unusual and those capable of aging for 8-10 years are rare birds indeed. Not a hard and fast rule I agree as a few of the 1986 and 1989 Muscadets de Sevre et Maine continue to drink well but that confounds even the winemakers. And those wines are most certainly lacking in the enthusiasm that would make them appropriate with oysters or shellfish.

As to agreement with my point of view, I think you will find that among others with Tom Stevenson and Jancis Robinson.

Best
Rogov

Alas, but from 40+ years of tasting experience I would have to say that those Muscadet wines that are capable of aging for 4 - 7 years are unusual and those capable of aging for 8-10 years are rare birds indeed.

The Luneau-Papin Excelsior wines are indeed rare birds. I know that Muscadet in general is for early drinking but I thought you were referring to the intentions of Pierre Luneau-Papin for this specific wine.

The wine was very cold & didn't show corky character until it warmed up a bit.

Yes, cold wines are often tricky as they can be mute for the temperature reason as well.

I agree that much of what's made in Muscadet isn't made for the long haul, but some of Luneau-Papin and Marc Ollivier's wines age very nicely, thank you.

Last year I had 1996 Clos Briods (sp?) side by side with the 2005. I had heard great things about the 1996. Much to my disappointment the '96 was DOA while the '05 was singing. Other than some white Burgs I have had very few whites wines, of any style, that have held up well at 10+.

I would suggest that it was simply quite dead. Most of even the very best Muscadet wines, including those of Luneau-Papin are destined for early drinking - that is to say, two to four years from the vintage.

From my perspective the '02 Clos des Allees, '89 & '90 L d'Or, etc are all drinking well. I'm sure Luneau-Papin makes some base wine I've never seen that might be dead now from '02, but not aware of it. In any case the '02 Excelsior is a fairly recent release as David notes. Sure, 99+% of Muscadet is best within first few years, but that is true of many many appellations, without having any direct relation to the producers that follow a different path.

I definitely think that TCA often intensifies with some air, it's not that rare that I go back and forth at first sniff, and then when revisit it becomes obvious.

The wine was very cold & didn't show corky character until it warmed up a bit.

Yes, cold wines are often tricky as they can be mute for the temperature reason as well.

Rahsaan, absolument!!! There were experienced wine-tasters plus 2 staff that tasted on opening. The wine was too chilled so we put aside for an hour. Nic thought it had a musk-melon aroma so maybe a clue there?
I have a very good nose and I am telling everyone here I did not suspect it was corked on opening. After an hour plus few minutes, the others arrived and yes it was corked! Unmistakeable.

** I know a dead wine when I taste one. This was not oxidised, did not have caramel etc

Thank You, Happy Canada Day.

I add my voice as a witness of the graceful and quite complex longevity of L d'Or. I had some bottles of 1989 from RSJ which I consumed with great appreciation in the early 00s.

As sometimes happens, I will be the dissenting voice here. I am not at all sure that the wine in question was corked. I would suggest that it was simply quite dead. Most of even the very best Muscadet wines, including those of Luneau-Papin are destined for early drinking - that is to say, two to four years from the vintage. I cannot help but wonder if the seven year old Muscadet you sampled was not simply well past its peak and showing signs of oxidation and caremelization.

Sorry Daniel, but you are well wide of the mark here. Accepting that almost all Muscadet drinks well young, and that many wines are not intended for ageing, you have picked a bad example to apply this generality to.

The Excelsior cuvée originates from a single terroir, the Schistes de Goulaine, in La Chapelle Heulin. It is perhaps the closest the region comes to a recognised cru, and Luneau-Papin have been lobbying the INAO for appropriate recognition of the site since at least 2001, with this cuvée as their principal evidence. The vines are 65 years old and are planted on a south-facing slope which is cared for along the lines of lutte raisonnée, the harvest is by hand and the yields are between 25 and 35 hl/ha. Rather than the traditional nine months sur lie, this wine sees 36 months en cuve, with regular bâtonnage before it sees the inside of a bottle. This work clearly illustrates that, like Luneau-Papin's L d'Or, his better-known cuvée I think, Excelsior is well set up for ageing and the 2002 - a fine vintage - should just be getting into its stride. Here's my tasting note from this year's Salon des Vins de Loire in February:

Pierre Luneau-Papin Muscadet Sèvre et Maine sur lie Excelsior 2002: This has a finely muted nose in comparison to the preceding wines. Nevertheless the palate shows some lovely substance, quiet full and broad, with a ripe substance. The acidity is fresh and attractive, although a little muted related to its peers. There is a good stony edge though, nice ripeness, and a firm character. An attractive wine, I think this will do very well given time. An update from the 2009 Salon. 17+/20 (February 2009)

You don't see reports on older Excelsiors, but that is because the cuvée only came into being in 2001.

After this, I tasted multiple vintages of L d'Or with Pierre-Marie Luneau, the next generation after Pierre Luneau-Papin - the 2007, 2005, 2003, 1999, 1997, 1989 and 1982. Nothing dead in this lot!

As for corked wine being immediately apparent when the bottle is opened, that is sometimes true, but frequently not.

thanks for detailed info, Chris. Another site recently had a link to your report on a German producer from April 1st, 2005, I loved it!
http://www.thewinedoctor.com/germany/bluenun.shtml

[quote="Chris Kissack"]Sorry Daniel, but you are well wide of the mark here. Accepting that almost all Muscadet drinks well young, and that many wines are not intended for ageing, you have picked a bad example to apply this generality to.
[quote]


I yield. Indeed I may have been over-generalizing.

Best
Rogov

thanks for detailed info, Chris. Another site recently had a link to your report on a German producer from April 1st, 2005, I loved it!
http://www.thewinedoctor.com/germany/bluenun.shtml

Thanks Dale. Perhaps the best response I had regarding that piece was from a guy writing a book on wine recovered from shipwrecks. He wanted more information on the 1462 that I drank - which ship was it recovered from, where was the wreck, etc. I could have played along but didn't think ultimately that would be to my credit....so I just directed him to the date of the article and I never heard from him again.