Why am I confused?

Just about everybody in this thread was a "lecturer".

But, then again, I'm just a cook. What the hell do I know?

Thanks for the compliments, Chef. Glad to fill a gap in your knowledge.

They are not the same. I think it is only Brian who is saying they are.

Brian - if you could check your sources and let us know what they are, maybe we could get to the bottom of this. I am presuming they refer to the fact that they have very similar DNA. But Blanc clones are distinctively different from Gris clones. You only have to look at the colour of the grapes to see that. The wines are also very different - unless yields are so high they both are rendered tasteless.

Sorry but I did not pursue this any further over the weekend. Also thought my posts made it clear that when I said they were the same that was based upon DNA analysis. Just like Zinfandel and Primitivo or Sangiovese Grosso and Sangiovese Piccolo grapes there are plenty of examples of grapes that are considered to be the same based upon DNA testing that are different on the vine.

They are not the same. I think it is only Brian who is saying they are.

Brian - if you could check your sources and let us know what they are, maybe we could get to the bottom of this. I am presuming they refer to the fact that they have very similar DNA. But Blanc clones are distinctively different from Gris clones. You only have to look at the colour of the grapes to see that. The wines are also very different - unless yields are so high they both are rendered tasteless.

Sorry but I did not pursue this any further over the weekend. Also thought my posts made it clear that when I said they were the same that was based upon DNA analysis. Just like Zinfandel and Primitivo or Sangiovese Grosso and Sangiovese Piccolo grapes there are plenty of examples of grapes that are considered to be the same based upon DNA testing that are different on the vine.

OK. Thanks Brian.I agree with all that. But you also said at one point that they had identical DNA (maybe to cut down on typing) - which they do not - it is just that the DNA differences are not detectable in the usual tests. If they did have identical DNA they would also be indistinguishable outwardly.

Some quick references to pinot Mutations and the relationship of all the Pinot clones.

From http://wineandvineways.net/sensory/Pinot_Noir_Clones.pdf:

One of their parents is Pinot (which should not, Dr Meredith insists, be called “Pinot noir”, since the various Pinot grapes, whether noir, blanc or grigio, seem to be minor aberrations caused by mutations within the same clone).

and

Technically speaking, Pinot noir, Pinot blanc and Pinot gris/grigio are the same grape variety.

last

And, boy, do these mutant-clone siblings produce dramatically distinct wines.

From http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10169/10169.ch01.php comes

Conventional field observation and DNA fingerprinting both indicate that pinot noir has a strong proclivity toward spontaneous mutation in the vineyard. Pinot gris and pinot blanc, the red-grayish and green-yellowish versions of pinot, are generally grown as distinct varieties, but their DNA profiles are genetically indistinguishable from pinot noir, and they almost certainly originated as spontaneous field mutations from red-berried vines.

I hope Carole Meredith does not mind me reproducing what she posted here in 2004 (which I found quoted here in 2007). And I hope her views have not changed since - I guess a lot could have happened in the last 5 years. Her words are in italics:


Here’s my boilerplate explanation of the distinction between clones and varieties:

DNA studies have clarified the distinction between a variety and clone. All vines of all clones of a variety are derived (by asexual propagation, i.e. cuttings and buds) from a single original vine. The single original vine arose as a seedling that was the result of a sexual union between two parent vines, almost always of two different varieties. All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises as a result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual) that occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for new vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation survives to the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The mutations accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each other.

But clonal differences are very very tiny compared to the genetic differences between varieties. The standard DNA markers used to identify grape varieties will produce the same DNA profile for all clones in the variety. It took us years before we finally found any DNA markers at all that would separate any clones of Pinot or Chardonnay, and they only differentiated a few clones. The differences between varieties have their origin in sexual genetic processes (i.e., meiosis and recombination) whereas the differences between clones arise only from asexual processes.

This discussion becomes problematic in the case of Pinot noir, Pinot blanc, Pinot gris and Meunier, however, in that they are all, in fact, clones of a single variety (i.e., they all arose from a single original seedling and all have the same DNA profile) even though wine producers and consumers consider them to be separate varieties because they are so visibly different. The French language deals with this concept better in that all 4 are considered to be the same 'cepage'.

Sorry Brian, I had to break after that post as my editing box on the forum became difficult to use - text kept scrolling while I was trying to edit.

I thought the quote was helpful, but I was going to go on to say.... Yes, the Pinots are all "technically the same variety", in the sense described by Carole, and have the same DNA profile. But not precisely the same DNA - different clones (by definition) never do.

But you also said at one point that they had identical DNA (maybe to cut down on typing) - which they do not - it is just that the DNA differences are not detectable in the usual tests. If they did have identical DNA they would also be indistinguishable outwardly.

Missed this post earlier. My mistake. Gross overgeneralization as we have both noted since.

I hope Carole Meredith does not mind me reproducing what she posted here in 2004 (which I found quoted here in 2007). And I hope her views have not changed since - I guess a lot could have happened in the last 5 years. Her words are in italics:

...This discussion becomes problematic in the case of Pinot noir, Pinot blanc, Pinot gris and Meunier, however, in that they are all, in fact, clones of a single variety (i.e., they all arose from a single original seedling and all have the same DNA profile) even though wine producers and consumers consider them to be separate varieties because they are so visibly different. The French language deals with this concept better in that all 4 are considered to be the same 'cepage'.

So, to get back to my original confusion, Pinot Grigio (Gris) could make a nice bubbly, right? Are there any commercial Pinot Gris bubblies? Just wondering.

But you also said at one point that they had identical DNA (maybe to cut down on typing) - which they do not - it is just that the DNA differences are not detectable in the usual tests. If they did have identical DNA they would also be indistinguishable outwardly.

Missed this post earlier. My mistake. Gross overgeneralization as we have both noted since.

Phew! Seems we are ALL agreed then, and the confusion is cleared

Must say though, pedant as I am, I would hate to to start contradicting anyone who ventured the opinion that Pinot Blanc, Gris and Noir are different varieties. I think the common usage of the word must count for something.

Are there any commercial Pinot Gris bubblies?

I don't know of any pure Pinot Gris bubblies, but it is a component in some Alsace cremants.

Howie,
An Oregon winery, Duck Pond Cellars actual produces a Pinot Gris Sparkling wine it retails for about $25.

Salute

So, to get back to my original confusion, Pinot Grigio (Gris) could make a nice bubbly, right?

Howie, I am not really qualified to answer but that has never stopped me before. The concern I would have would be getting the fruit flavor you want at the TA levels desired for sparkling wine. Based on the still Grigio wines that I tasted, those picked at lower sugar levels seem to lack fruit. The Gris wines that have more flavor also taste as if they have a much lower TA. I have never made any Pinot Grigio/Gris so this is pure speculation from wines I have purchased.

I would hate to to start contradicting anyone who ventured the opinion that Pinot Blanc, Gris and Noir are different varieties. I think the common usage of the word must count for something.

I was thinking about this last night. At what point does a clone's properties become so unique as to warrant it being spoke of as a different grape in common usage? Most clones are not spoken of seperately but as I know just from the two clones of Sangio that I have growing can behave vastly different.

Hi Brian,
When it becomes “significant” and “important “ to man, that he/she produces a distinguished wine from it, warrants its own name. Just someday Brain that Sangio clone planted in the hills of Maryland or Virginia might someday warrant more than just a number.

Salute

Howie,
An Oregon winery, Duck Pond Cellars actual produces a Pinot Gris Sparkling wine it retails for about $25.

Salute

Yeah, but it's from Duck Pond.

So, to get back to my original confusion, Pinot Grigio (Gris) could make a nice bubbly, right? Are there any commercial Pinot Gris bubblies? Just wondering.

Yes there are several Italian sparkling Pinot Grigios available in the UK, ias well as own labels for major supermarkets including Sainsbury and Marks & Spencer

At what point does a clone's properties become so unique as to warrant it being spoke of as a different grape in common usage?

Until recent DNA testing it was believed that Noir/Grigio/Blanc/Meunieur we different varieties.

what it takes nowadays to recognise a known clone as a different variety I don't know, but Ch des Charmes did so with a Gamay vine that they identified as growing different from others in the vineyard. They cloned that one and registered it as Gamay Noir Droit.

From their website at http://www.chateaudescharmes.com/the_wi ... avids.html

In 1982, Château des Charmes' founder Paul-Michel Bosc, while conducting pioneering clonal selection research at his vineyard in Niagara-on-the-Lake, noticed a single Gamay Noir vine that exhibited some interesting and unique characteristics. Most noticeably, the vine shoots grew in an upright ("droit") position. Propagation of this single vine began immediately and culminated almost two decades later in the granting of international Plant Breeder's Rights to Château des Charmes. "Canada's first vinifera" was born. Gamay Droit produces grapes that ripen on average about ten days later than Gamay Noir with higher sugar levels and greater colouring matters. The result is a red wine with more body, alcohol and flavour concentration

The also claim another distinctive clone, Chardonnay 'Musque', which at least one other Ontario winery has planted and is making wine from.

So it seems it has to be distinctly different with desirable qualities

Thanks Peter and interesting but to me that reads no different than any of the proprietary clones that exist on the market today. They are cleary noting that it is still Gamay or Chardonnay. It does not seem as if they are trying to get it recognized as a different grape.

I agree with you that nowadays with the knowledge that exists it will be difficult if not impossible for clones to be recognized as different grapes in common discussion. Instead they will be talked of as the Musque clone but still recognized as Chardonnay. The common language usage of different names I believe was based as much on a lack of knowledge of grape genetics as it was on the ability of some clones to produce superior wine when grown in specific locations. The conditions that lead to different names in the past don't exist today.

I think culture, politics and business have a lot to so which whether clones are regarded as different varieties or not too. We now know that Primitivo and Zinfandel are technically the same variety. But I don't think anyone really knows (or cares enough to do the experiments) whether the California and Italian wines made from those grapes differ mainly due to clonal differences, or due to terroir and winemaking. In the meantime different names continue to appear on bottles. At other times it has been convenient to pretend that different varieties are the same, e.g. Chilean Merlot, which turned out to be Carmenere.

Thanks Peter and interesting but to me that reads no different than any of the proprietary clones that exist on the market today. They are cleary noting that it is still Gamay or Chardonnay. It does not seem as if they are trying to get it recognized as a different grape.
.

Two new grape varieties for you Brian, Malian and Shalistin.

I don't think you'll deduce their provenance from their names.

Peter wrote;
Two new grape varieties for you Brian, Malian and Shalistin.

It happened in Australia, so it’s very possible it will eventually someday happen some place else were grapes are propagated.

Salute

Without being an expert, I would say that Pinot Gris and Pinot Grigio are generally said to be the same variety, that zinfandel and primitivo are related but not identical. But part of the problem is that in biological terms, even species can be a floating target, and variety is always a highly inexact category. There will always be genetic differences within any population grouping, no matter how small (except for identical twins). One can determine species distinctions with certain arbitrary rules (among animals, that two species can't produce fertile offspring, for instance), but variety is always going to be a category of convenience. There will be genetic differences between the pinot blancs of different vineyards (as there are between different groups of say squirrels that populate different parts of the same city) and no doubt more genetic differences between populations in Italy and France, where various forms of interbreeding will also have occurred among different populations. Whether these differences arise to the level of producing different varieties will be an agreement among observers and not a natural reality.

Thanks Peter and interesting but to me that reads no different than any of the proprietary clones that exist on the market today. They are cleary noting that it is still Gamay or Chardonnay. It does not seem as if they are trying to get it recognized as a different grape.
.

Two new grape varieties for you Brian, Malian and Shalistin.

I don't think you'll deduce their provenance from their names.

Thanks Peter. I did not know of these. I find it interesting that just like the Pinot discussion it is the berry color that prompts that different name.