Reason(s) for cloudy wine?

[Jenise]

Yesterday morning, in advance of an afternoon birthday tasting for which aged burgundy and Bordeaux were requested, I pulled (among other things) an 88 Rion Clos Vougeot, the second of three bottles purchased about a year ago. The first, opened last summer, had been an amazing experience and I was hoping for a repeat. But that wine, with a pristeen clean cork, had been so closed it took almost three hours of decanting to bring it back. So yesterday, in spite of the fact that I was travelling over the border and hate to "open carry" under that circumstance, decided that I had better see what I had.

The saturated cork came out in two pieces and the wine was a heavily clouded brown. A total loss.

So I pulled the last, third bottle. Better cork--wet but whole, and the poured wine wasn't youthful like last summer's but a bricky maroon acceptable for age. It tasted alright (wine never tastes quite right to me in the morning) and I deemed it to be good enough with potential to improve by arrival time. But it too was cloudy, and had the confused taste of a cloudy wine. So with a funnel and half a box of Melitta coffee filters, I filtered the wine twice, using a new filter for each pour, so 5 filters per complete pass, and two passes altogether. The result was a huge improvement, not perfect but nice enough as judged by a burg bowl held up to the bright morning sun. I recorked it with a vacuvin and packed it up for the trip. (It was not my only offering.)

A few hours later, the wine poured into my glass was as brown and cloudy as the first bottle I'd opened.

So where in the H word did the new clouds come from?

[David M. Bueker]

Sounds bacterial

Sounds bacterial

In a 26 year old wine? I'd say the filtering over exposed the wine to oxygen, causing a bunch of old stuff (tannins, etc.) to fall out of solution.

[Jenise]

Sounds bacterial

In a 26 year old wine? I'd say the filtering over exposed the wine to oxygen, causing a bunch of old stuff (tannins, etc.) to fall out of solution.

Tannins can be microscopic particulate?

[David M. Bueker]

Would have to have been a massively tannic wine in its youth. Makes no sense to me.

Hi Jenise,
The chemistry of this 26-year-old wine was at a stage where it couldn’t hold certain organic solids any more in solution. Passing a wine through a coffee filter is probable equivalent to a very “rough polishing”. (Should be done just prior to presentation). The actual filtering process could of “disturbed” the “cloudy” particles, suspending them throughout the “filtered wine” making them less noticeable of make the wine seem less cloudy. Allowing the wine to “rest” (you’re only dealing with a 750ml volume I assume) a few hours and the suspended particle rearrange themselves becoming noticeable again. (These suspended particles could act like fining agents (they posses either a positive or negative charge and attract other particles and become bigger and more noticeable or make the wine seem more cloudy. Cloudiness could occur in any wine.



David wrote
Would have to have been a massively tannic wine in its youth. Makes no sense to me.

Not necessarily David (I agree with Howie) As Tannins oxidize (as “fresh tannins” become “old tannins “ they become hydrophobic. Sometimes in red wines you can see “ropiness” other times its not as noticeable but in the mouth the wine may feel “stringy”.

Salute

[David M. Bueker]

Jenise didn't mention ropiness or anything like that.

Earlier, I mentioned (tannins, etc.). The "etc." would include proteins, pigments and tartrates. White wines are normally cold stabilized by subjecting them to low temperatures (below freezing) for an extended period to drop the tartrates out of solution. This treatment is seldom done with reds. Variations in long term storage temperatures could cause the tartrates to got go out of or even back into solution. The concentration of tartrates in solution would also have an effect on the acidity (pH). While tartrate solubility wrt to temperature is well known, less well known is that tartrates are less soluble the higher the alcohol content. Jenise mentioned the wet cork, but not the ullage. Depending on the storage conditions (humidity), the loss of volume through the cork could be mostly water, thus raising the alcohol content slightly. The volume would, of course, be replaced with air. It's all very complicated, but slight changes in temperature, pH and alcohol content could contribute to "stuff" becoming unstable and falling out of solution as sediment. Tartrates that may fall out of a red wine may not look like the "wine crystals" people report in whites. They may be very fine and pigmented. Also, changes in pH would effect the hue.

[Jenise]

Hi Jenise,
Passing a wine through a coffee filter is probable equivalent to a very “rough polishing”. (Should be done just prior to presentation)...750, I assume...Cloudiness could occur in any wine...stringy...

Victor, yes, it was a 750. Thanks for the explanation--my the chemistry of wine is complex! And I do know that cloudiness can occur in any wine, I've run into many an affected bottle. What I haven't seen, however, is a wine that re-clouded. The 'rough polishing' you refer to is something I have done often on older wine, in advance of drinking and with no ill effect--but usually just to remove standard sediment, or clean up and refine an unfiltered wine that tastes a bit 'rough' without this process. Never tried before to rescue a wine this bad off, and normally I would have just written off the loss. But the memory of the stellar bottle last summer made it hard to accept the loss of TWO additional bottles, all purchased at some expense, so I played the only card I had. No ropiness, btw.

Howie, ullage was less than pristeen but not low, and the second bottle was slightly better than the first--shoulder, anyway. Harder to call it on a burgundy bottle. Interesting re tartrates--I am only aware of crystals, bit not know that they could also be a fine, silicate-like powder.

...Interesting re tartrates--I am only aware of crystals, bit not know that they could also be a fine, silicate-like powder.

If a wine is already clear and tartrates start to precipitate, the crystals will form on their own and grow large. However, if there are fine particles suspended in the wine, these particles become nucleation points for the crystals to form.

I'm not about to wade too deeply in the river of science, as I would be swept downstream quickly, but Victor's elegant explanation and Howie's salient points seem to cover it nicely for me.

I've had experiences that were less dramatic but similar to yours. Once filter decanted a troublesome wine, trying to salvage what I could, and had the same post-decanting problem, which was expressed as an extreme haziness.

Also have had the experience with super-fast oxidation after opening a very old red wine (Burgundy). It was akin to the browning of a slice of apple albeit much faster. Conversely, also once had a gorgeous red burg (Grand Cru) in a cellar I was curating drop absolutely all its color out of solution. Hardly any pigment left at all; most of it was in the bottom of the bottle.

Once in Epernay I had the occasion to taste a very old Moet, one that had been laid down for the Queen Mum, Elizabeth's mother. Our host urged us to sniff and sip fast, as the wine was so fragile it would collapse almost immediately upon being exposed to the air. He was right. You could almost see the browning of the wine in the glass, and the taste descended into muddiness with about a minute or two.

I had an interesting experience with a '95 G. Mugneret Nuits St. Georges, 1st Cru Les Boudots, it was given to me with the caveat that it was "cloudy". I waited about 2 months with the bottle standing up, and it was, in fact, cloudy. But I decanted it for about and hour and it was very enjoyable. My advise to the presenter was "don't look at the wine, just swirl an sniff and enjoy". Worked for me.
He subsequently gave me another bottle from his trove, and I stood this one up for maybe 4 months (doubt that this really made a difference), and this specimen was 91-92 points and clear as a bell. From this experience I would not disqualify a wine simply because it is "cloudy". I know it is a fault, but maybe not a "strike-out".
Any others with an experience like this?

[Jenise]

I had an interesting experience with a '95 G. Mugneret Nuits St. Georges, 1st Cru Les Boudots, it was given to me with the caveat that it was "cloudy". I waited about 2 months with the bottle standing up, and it was, in fact, cloudy. But I decanted it for about and hour and it was very enjoyable. My advise to the presenter was "don't look at the wine, just swirl an sniff and enjoy". Worked for me.
He subsequently gave me another bottle from his trove, and I stood this one up for maybe 4 months (doubt that this really made a difference), and this specimen was 91-92 points and clear as a bell. From this experience I would not disqualify a wine simply because it is "cloudy". I know it is a fault, but maybe not a "strike-out".
Any others with an experience like this?

Richard, I've had some bottle variation within a case of the type you mention. And some cloudy wines haven't been undrinkable. But when compared to a clearer bottle, there's obviously a taste variation that favors clarity. Usually, filtering the wine with a (good-quality, unbleached) paper filter makes a good difference.

I’m not so sure I would consider all “cloudy” wines (all wines that “throw” a sediment will first appear cloudy) a “fault” (I believe this is what Richard was trying to say). I’ll go one step further it could be a sign of a “high quality wine” that wasn’t fined and filtered (manhandled excessively) and actually experienced a ‘perfectly normal (healthy)” aging, evolving or developing process. Don’t get me wrong some cloudy wines could taste like “crap”; wines that have been fined and filtered and at one time “clear and brilliant” could very possibly develop a haze, cloudiness or even sediment. At this stage of the game (once bottled) no winemaker (amateur or professional) wants suspended particles (floating about their wine) or a precipitate (wine sitting or resting on a sediment) that tastes gross and offensive. Might not look so pleasing and feel gross in the mouth but it really shouldn’t taste all that bad or “gross” For the most part the sediment and suspended particles represent the dry extract content of the grapes themselves. The suspended (solid) particle whether you notice them or not could contribute positively to a wine’s mouth feel texture, aroma, and flavor. (If the wine seems “ropy” you most likely would see “ropiness” in the wine otherwise the wine might seem “stringy”’ heavy”, “dense” “chewy” or just “full-bodied”, etc)

Salute

FWIW - I've never seen a clear, red Ch. Musar. I've probably had it a dozen times or so.

FWIW - I've never seen a clear, red Ch. Musar. I've probably had it a dozen times or so.

Hi Howie,

I opened a 1994 Chateau Musar for WLDG poster Mike Filigenzi a couple of weeks ago and many other older bottles of Chateau Musar over the years for other WLDG members and friends. While I have noticed several issues with Chateau Musar, none of those were the wine not being clear. But perhaps your issues have been with bottles in very recent vintages?

Most of the Musar I tasted was at various MOCOOLs over the years, including a vertical one year. I don't think I've had one less than 10 years old - most in the 15-25 year range. That being said, the pours were from bottles, not decanters, so it's quite possible I was always last in line and got pours with sediment.

Ropiness in wine is a bacterial infestation that produces slimy strands. It's very rare these days--I've only seen it once, in a bottle that a customer was returning to the wine shop I happened to be in. I've never seen it in any of the wine I've bought.

I think Howie's explanation is the correct one: sudden precipitation of tartrate onto microscopic particles in the wine. I'd be surprised if Rion's grands crus are either filtered or cold-stabilized, and the handling of the bottle before pouring probably knocked some of the sediment loose, providing the particles for the tartrate to precipitate onto when the bottle was uncorked.

-Paul W.

[Jenise]

I'd be surprised if Rion's grands crus are either filtered or cold-stabilized, and the handling of the bottle before pouring probably knocked some of the sediment loose, providing the particles for the tartrate to precipitate onto when the bottle was uncorked.

Nope. Paul, first of all, I open a lot of old wines, and most of the wines we like are unfiltered so often have the slight haze vs. the clarity of modern mass-production. And I personally was the only one to handle this wine. I know the differences, and this wine wasn't just hazy. There were billuous clouds within the haze that tumbled around like opaque dust storms when you swirled the decanter--a degree of solids never before experienced by me.

If you reread Howie’s post he talks about proteins possible “hooking” up with other substances in the wine. These are known as colloids basically they are particles to big to be held (dissolved) in the wine medium and too small to settle out; therefore they remain dispersed evenly in the wine medium. Eventually they could clump together and form a suspension Depending upon the type and nature of the protein they could chain together taking a coiled rope like form, If left undisturbed they will eventually (hopefully) sink to the bottom. This sediment is what I would describe as “fluffy” (sediment that is very easy to disturb, unlike tartaric acid crystals (in red wine these are referred to as “black diamonds). When acids usually hook up with other substances in the wine you could get grainy, scaly, flaky, shinny shaped forms. This sediment I would describe as "firm"). Simply walking with the bottle (floor vibrations) will disturb fluffy sediment. a more violent handling will be needed to disturb firm sediment.

Salute

[Jenise]

And these were not violently handled. The first (and worst, at least at first) bottle had been stood up for a week, the second was carefully taken from a one year's rest in the cellar to where I uncorked it, about a 20 foot distance.