By the glass... should I give up?

Hello everybody,

First off I'm very glad to have found this forum. So far everybody has been very friendly and helpful and you guys are helping to take years off of my newbie wine learning curve!

I have a small family of 3 (wife and an 11 year old daughter) and we eat out quite a bit due to our hectic schedules and subsequent lack of time to cook at home. We do from time to time eat at a "nice" place but for the average dinner it's going to be a $30 - $50 meal for the 3 of us (I mention that only to set the scene that we're not at Taco Bell, nor are we at a 5 star restaurant). My wife has a moderate allergy to alcohol and gets red and puffy with anything more than about a sip. My daughter is, well, 11, so obviously she's not drinking either. That leaves me in a constant debate pondering "should I get a glass of wine or stick with water"? I'm obviously not going to put down a whole bottle myself so I don't really have any other choice than to buy by the glass.

My question/comment is I have only had about 10% of these by-the-glass experiences be positive, am I just unlucky or is this hopeless to get a good by-the-glass sample at an average non-wine-centric restaurant? I'm certainly not an expert wine taster, and 99% of the time I have never previously had the wine that I am ordering, so I feel completely helpless to object to or even rate the taste. But I am convinced that something is wrong when *every* $30-$50 bottle that I have gotten is at least "ok" and yet many of the $9 - $11 glasses that I've had were almost undrinkable. In one recent case I did leave some at the table. As far as the taste, it's very strange. It's almost like I'm drinking an extremely cheap fortified wine like a Nightrain or Thunderbird. It's got a really harsh alcohol taste to it. Is that a sign of the wine having gone bad due to oxidation? The wines that I'm getting are always reds: Pinot Noirs, Cabs, Syrah's, etc. From my limited knowledge it seems that these won't keep very long after being opened. That leads me to the hypothesis that it's quite likely that the last person that had a glass from this same bottle could have gotten it weeks ago (or longer). Again, these aren't the types of restaurants where you get a lot of big wine drinkers, so I would be shocked if they actually had 3-4 customers ordering a glass of the same wine on the same night. Sometimes I almost wonder if I'm screwing myself by trying to order the "good" selections from their list. What I mean is, maybe if I got the cheapest red, that would be the freshest at least since more people would be consuming it. It's probably less likely that your average Joe Budweiser is willing to spend $10 on a glass of wine to go along with his $9 entree

Anyway, I'd love to hear some comments on a) whether or not it's usually a risky proposition to get red wine by the glass and b) how to actually pin down the taste of "spoiled" wine.

Thanks!
Jeff

Sounds like you're running into a common problem, Jeff. A lot of restaurants that aren't wine-centric will open a bottle and serve the contents by the glass for several days running without any preservation system. The wine gets oxidized within the first day (or maybe two, if you're lucky) and the rest of it tastes awful. It's not fair to the consumers nor is it fair to the producers, but it is a common occurrence. One way around this is to ask your server how long the bottle has been open before ordering the wine. You might also consider asking the manager over to try the wine when you get one that's bad. With luck, they may have enough experience with it to recognize the problem and open a new bottle for you (or at least comp you a dessert or something).

It's a tough problem with restaurants in that price range, and you may end up wanting to stick with water, beer, or a cocktail if you can't find some places that take wine seriously.

Mike

Bitch, Jeff. A $9 to $11 glass of wine should be delicious.

You've put your finger on the problem -- by and large, restaurants don't do a good job of storing partial bottles. I order lots of wine by the glass, always ask for a taste before allowing them to pour the whole glass, and refuse it if the taste isn't any good. At your price point, you shouldn't have any problem getting them to either offer a pour from a new bottle or a pour of another wine.

If a restaurant won't accomodate these very reasonable requests, drink water. And vote with your feet.

Regards, Bob

Oh, Jeff

I so feel for you.

I hate ordering wine by the glass as I never know how many months the bottle has been opened.

I usually ask the server for whichever wine has been opened that same day. I explain that I want 1 or 2 glasses (OK never less than 2) but I don't want a tired old bottle that has been opened for weeks. And you know? That has had some success several times with the promise that not only will they open a new one, but the bottle being brought to my table and opened there and then infront of me.

I think the solution, that I first came across in South Africa several years ago and more recently in Ireland, is the individual serving bottle --175ml crew cap closed bottle. I love 'em. You don't get the artisan wineries (yet) but you get fresh wine!!

Other thing I do is order a bottle of the cheapest wine and drink what I want of it -- that usually works out cheaper for 3 glasses anyway. And you've got a wife to drive you home. Sorted

At least by only drinking red wines you bypass one of the problems of drinking white wine by the glass. That is the practice (in NZ anyway) of storing white wines in a refrigerator designed to hold beer, that is way too cold. I have occasionally asked if they could get a new bottle out of their cellar rather than pour a glass from a bottle in the fridge, or even worse, in an ice bucket on the bar top. Fine for bubbles, but not still whites.

Peter has mentioned one of my strategies. I usally ask for a glass of the most recently opened bottle of red wine. Admittedly this usually gets you a glass of Merlot rather than a Cab from the same producer, but is usually worth it.

Another strategy is to try to get seated in the bar area where you can watch what is going on. If you see the barkeep emptying out a bottle of what you just ordered, you can leap up there and forceably suggest in a nice way that he/she pour it down the drain, and open a new one for you.

Another effort which usually only works in independently owned operations or in chains with some flexiblity at the local level, is to recommend that unfinished bottles be sent to the kitchen each day. The intent is that it be used in cooking, but so long it gets out of the bar, I don't care what they with it.

Jeff,

I have the same strategy that others have mentioned. I narrow down my choices to a few selections and then ask for a glass of the bottle that was most recently opened. It works very well most of the time, and a few times the server has gone out of their way to open a new bottle due to my concerns.

On the same note, I wish there were better selections of wines by the glass or half-bottle for those of us who like to enjoy wine in smaller quantities. Even with two people at the table my husband and I would rarely finish an entire bottle when one of us has to drive home.

Lisa

[Robin Garr]

Anyway, I'd love to hear some comments on a) whether or not it's usually a risky proposition to get red wine by the glass and b) how to actually pin down the taste of "spoiled" wine.

Jeff, you've had very good advice already, but I'd add a couple more points.

* Noting that you come from a good-size city between the coasts pretty much the same size as the between-the-coasts city I live in, I'd be surprised if you can't find quite a few good, family-friendly restaurants that are affordable AND wine friendly, particularly if you shy away from the chains and go to good, independent and locally owned eateries. And if you do this, let them know why. An attaboy goes a long way. Short answer, though, I'd be wary of ordering wine - much less wine by the glass - at any large, chain-operated "family casual dining" restaurant.

* Usually literally "spoiled" wine isn't the issue. In my opinion, wine that's been in an open bottle for several days deteriorates gradually, and for a day or two - especially if it's a sturdy red - it may be just fine. The problem, though, is that the kind of family restaurants we're talking about tend to have mass-market American wines, low in acidity and all about fruit, that start to show deterioration quickly because they aren't agers. The issue is usually oxidation, from exposure to air, and this manifests itself as a nutty, Sherry-like character that gets worse and worse with time.

Thanks everybody for the great advice! It never occurred to me that I had any say in how my glass was obtained, I figured that was just the downside of buying "by the glass". But I'll be sure to try out this technique (asking for the most recently opened red) tonight!

Thanks again,
Jeff

Yeah, it's a real problem.

There are a few (unfortunately, all too few) restaurants that take by-the-glass wine seriously. These places keep the bottles in a nitrogen dispenser so that each glass is always fresh.

Elsewhere, you're at the mercy of how soon they opened that bottle. It could be days or (horror) weeks old. I'd consider asking the waiter/sommelier how long it's been open. Especially a sommelier. If the join'ts hoity-toity enough to employ a sommelier, they ought to be responsible enought to make sure their wine by the glass is fresh, or to fess up if it isn't.

And yeah--I've been in exactly the same position--wondering if the "best stuff" might be stale, whereas the cheap stuff that they're more likely to cycle through rapidly is fresher and therefore actually better-tasting.

I've had both glorious and dreadful wine-by-the-glass experiences, and unfortunately there's no way to know what you're in for, unless you have experience with the restaurant in question.

Regarding pinning down the taste of spoiled wine, this falls into two categories:

1) Intrinsically bad. Such as corked wine. For those sensitive to TCA (such as I), this is unambiguous and easy. Wine should never smell or taste of damp cardboard, musty cellars, or the toilet bowl. If it does, you have an immediate and irrefutable complaint--except by those who can't smell TCA, and they exist, sometimes in wine-tasting circumstances.

2) Over the hill due to bad storage. This is by far the more common problem when by-the-glass wines are merely poured out of a bottle, and the cork is just shoved back in between pourings. Ask ahead of time how they handle their by-the-glass wines. If they use a nitrogen dispensing system, you're probably golden. If they don't, ask when the bottle from which your glass is to be poured was uncorked. If they won't say or don't know, consider an alternative.

-Paul W.

I agree that by-the-glass can be risky, especially at everyday restaurants where there isn't an emphasis on treating wine properly. I rarely have wine at restaurants of this type, though that's probably because I very seldom eat out at these establishments, preferring to cook at home. When I go to a small, privately owned restaurant (especially a French restaurant), I will almost always order wine by the glass, and so far I haven't been disappointed with the freshness of said wines - even if they sometimes tend to be on the very low end of the quality spectrum.

Having said that, it's not just restaurants where a lack of wine knowledge impacts one's drinking pleasure: private homes are host to some of the most appalling wine storage missteps of all! I once visited a family where dinner was served and the wine, already opened but with the cork reinserted in the bottle, was brought to the table. Without me knowing it, and before any of the wine was poured, the host said something to the effect of "Yeah, we had a couple of glasses of this one at Easter and so I decided to save the rest..." The occasion of the supper at hand? Christmas ...

And then, of course, there is the ever-sinful wine rack atop the fridge.

Go out with Paris Hilton. My wife, Lynn, recently went to dinner with somebody important - not as well known as Paris, but a big shot in this area.

She came home singing the praises of a particular restaurant for having the most marvelous Bordeaux by the the glass - a particular St-Emilion that had been perfectly preserved.

I jumped at the chance and we went on a worknight, when a glass or two, rather than a bottle, was appropriate. Lynn asked for the St-Emilion by the glass and our waiter just stared at us. Never had one like that, he said. The restaurant had apparently opened a bottle to satisfy her request for a nice glass of wine when she had dined with someone important. They also enjoyed the entire meal on the house.

Should you give up? Well, I don't know about that. Like Bob suggested, vote with your feet. If you have been satisfied 10% of the time, patronize those places that have given you good wine. Personally, if I go to a restaurant and order wine by the glass, I expect nothing more than something to quaff. Many times I just order beer. That being said, you have made one of the best arguments for cooking at home. Cooking at home requires planning and shopping ahead. But when that is done, you could have a nice meal in less time than it takes to drive to the restaurant, get a seat, order, eat, pay up and drive home - for a bit less money, including a bottle of wine. Plus, your daughter could help out and learn a lot about various cooking techniques, ingredients and spices. For many very good, simple wine-friendly recipes I'd suggest you subscribe to Robin's weekly food letter and search the archives of the food letter. There is a certain satisfaction in cooking a nice meal.

Well, I failed at getting Paris Hilton to have dinner last night, but I did succeed in getting a good glass of Cabernet at California Pizza Kitchen. They had 5 or 6 varieties of Cab and I told the waitress that I would take any that had been just opened or that were not yet opened at all. She said no problem and then returned a minute later giving me two choices that had "just been opened" and said the bartender recommended choice "a" so that's what I went with. The glass I got was very good so I was thrilled!

re: cooking at home... this is definitely something I wish we had more time for but I work nearly 100 hours a week most weeks (I own two small businesses) and that means my wife ends up picking up some of the household overflow (one child, two dogs, etc.) in addition to her own full-time job. (That said, she is upstairs making us crepes right now, so we do get some culinary treats here and there!) On a regular week night it's just too much work to get groceries, cook, and then clean up everything. Not only that, but at home I still run into some of the same issues where I wouldn't drink a whole bottle and I'd have to store it for later. Even if I drank more the next day it might be too late already.

Maybe it was beginners luck last night, but so far I'm very happy with the new by-the-glass gameplan. Thanks again to all that commented!

Jeff

I agree with the "vote with feet" theory, and also making clear to management at places with good wine policies that it's a reason for my patronage (positive reinforcement always helps).

Too bad you prefer reds. I tend to try and order higher-acid whites btg, as they usually hold better (both due to acidity and refrigeration). They generally are too cold, but the cupping of hands can warm quickly.

If there's an inexpensive bottle on the list I think I might like, I've used Peter's final method. Many places with $9-11 glasses have a low end bottles at $25 or so, so I can drink half a bottle for a tad more than 2 glasses, with no freshness worries.