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JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by TomHill » Wed May 09, 2018 10:55 am

Interesting article by JamieGoode, as linked in WineTerroirist:
WinesMustBeTrue

in which he argues that are wines should not taste "nice" or good, but they must taste "true".

I always sorta thought if the wine in the glass in front of me tasted "good", than that was all that was important. Doh....now I know that that's not the criteria that I should be using...it's supposed to taste "true".

This came up in the two Calif Picpouls I recently tried. I loved the TablasCreek Picpoul because it had this wonderful/powerful aromatics, the likes of which I'd never done did see'd in Picpoul. Alas, now Jamie tells me I should not like this wine because it's not "true"...it doesn't taste anything like a "true" Picpoul de Pinet. Me bad.

Carried to the logical extent, we should should not like Calif Picpoul, or Zin, or Cabernet, or PinotNoir. These are all fake varieties brought in from Europe....they do not taste "true". The only American wine we should like is Concord!! I guess??
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Wed May 09, 2018 11:09 am

I have always been a member of the "true" brigade!!
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Yup....

by TomHill » Wed May 09, 2018 11:15 am

Bob Parsons Alberta wrote:I have always been a member of the "true" brigade!!


No problem w/ that, Bob.

I learned Zin from drinking Calif Zinfandel. That, to my mind, is "true" Zin. Even though "true" Zin only comes
from Apulia and Croatia. I've just not found those Zins very appealing, in general.
All depends what you define as "true".
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Jenise » Wed May 09, 2018 6:25 pm

I like Jamie, but I don't like getting preached at and that, my friend, was a sermon. He must be running out of topics.
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by David M. Bueker » Wed May 09, 2018 8:15 pm

That was not even close to a sermon. Was it a recycle of something Matt Kramer has done? Heck, was it a recycle of something Jamie has written? Perhaps.

That being said, given the scorn that folks on wine boards heap upon the “nice” supermarket wines, I don’t understand anyone taking umbrage with what Jamie wrote.

Even our famous pot stirrer (has he followed the three witches from Macbeth from the very start?) likes to talk about wines speaking of where they are grown. He’s speaking of “true” while just using different language.
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Wed May 09, 2018 8:29 pm

I thought a good write up..more!!
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Victorwine » Thu May 10, 2018 12:06 am

Adding some post-ferment sugar is wine trickery and makes a wine less "true"? How about sussreserve?

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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by David M. Bueker » Thu May 10, 2018 2:49 am

Sussreserve has largely gone the way of the dodo, except from crappy producers.
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Howie Hart » Thu May 10, 2018 5:32 am

David M. Bueker wrote:Sussreserve has largely gone the way of the dodo, except from crappy producers.

Not only do I disagree with this, so did you 12 years ago. http://forums.wineloverspage.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=944
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Steve Slatcher » Thu May 10, 2018 5:58 am

What is the difference between "this wine is true" and "this wine matches my preconceptions"? Is a true wine one that can be easily recognised by trained wine professionals, or one produced by naturalistas by dropping grapes into a bucket. Is is one that has a web page explaining how authentic it is, or is it produced by a farmer who cannot be bothered with that sort of thing and probably does not speak much English?

They are not questions I need worry about. What I need is a real choice in the wine market and a range of styles that I like.
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by David M. Bueker » Thu May 10, 2018 6:16 am

Howie Hart wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:Sussreserve has largely gone the way of the dodo, except from crappy producers.

Not only do I disagree with this, so did you 12 years ago. http://forums.wineloverspage.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=944


A ton has changed in the last 7-10 years. A ton.
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Victorwine » Thu May 10, 2018 8:17 am

A ton has changed in the last 7-10 years. A ton.

This might be true for industrial mass produced wine. But the principles and practices behind winemaking has not changed much. Years ago a bunch of guys might have stood around twisting a mass of grapes in a cloth, today we use bladder presses. With the “Natural” wine movement and most people becoming sustainable, and much more conscious about "going green” some of the “old techniques” are coming back into favor.

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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Tim York » Thu May 10, 2018 9:08 am

TomHill wrote:Interesting article by JamieGoode, as linked in WineTerroirist:
WinesMustBeTrue

in which he argues that are wines should not taste "nice" or good, but they must taste "true".

I always sorta thought if the wine in the glass in front of me tasted "good", than that was all that was important. Doh....now I know that that's not the criteria that I should be using...it's supposed to taste "true".

This came up in the two Calif Picpouls I recently tried. I loved the TablasCreek Picpoul because it had this wonderful/powerful aromatics, the likes of which I'd never done did see'd in Picpoul. Alas, now Jamie tells me I should not like this wine because it's not "true"...it doesn't taste anything like a "true" Picpoul de Pinet. Me bad.

Carried to the logical extent, we should should not like Calif Picpoul, or Zin, or Cabernet, or PinotNoir. These are all fake varieties brought in from Europe....they do not taste "true". The only American wine we should like is Concord!! I guess??
Tom [stirthepot.gif]


Tom, I think that you are reading into Jamie's article and particular into "true" something that Jamie didn't intend. I'm sure that Jamie did not mean to say that "true" can only be found in the European regions from where grape varieties originate. Your Picpoul from Tablas Creek is almost certainly be a "true" rendering of that grape from that Californian terroir although very different from and perhaps, for you, superior to a Picpoul de Pinet. From all I read Edmund St.John seems a prime example of "true" wines made in California from European varieties.

Neither "nice" nor "true" strike me as particularly well chosen vocabulary though I struggle to suggest anything better. It seems to me quite an acceptable notion to a serious wine lover that there is a big distinction to be made between "nice" but largely standardised mass market wines designed to appeal to generations brought up on Coca Cola and sweet soft drinks and "true" wines which speak clearly with the accent of the terroir and grape with minimum manipulation from the winemaker. He analogy with cheese and his example from Fitou seem well chosen but I hope he is not over-optimistic in suggesting that the producer of "true" wine makes a better living than the neighbour making merely "nice".

That said, I remain sceptical about the likely quality of Californian renderings of European grape varieties such as Mencia, Aglianico, Sagrantino.....until there is proof to the contrary like in the cases of Cabernet Sauvignon, Zinfandel......
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Jenise » Thu May 10, 2018 8:42 pm

Steve Slatcher wrote:They are not questions I need worry about. What I need is a real choice in the wine market and a range of styles that I like.


Amen.
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by David M. Bueker » Fri May 11, 2018 3:51 am

Victorwine wrote:A ton has changed in the last 7-10 years. A ton.

This might be true for industrial mass produced wine. But the principles and practices behind winemaking has not changed much. Years ago a bunch of guys might have stood around twisting a mass of grapes in a cloth, today we use bladder presses. With the “Natural” wine movement and most people becoming sustainable, and much more conscious about "going green” some of the “old techniques” are coming back into favor.

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I was specifically referring to sussreserve. It has largely died out in the last decade plus.
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Howie Hart » Fri May 11, 2018 5:32 am

David M. Bueker wrote:
Victorwine wrote:A ton has changed in the last 7-10 years. A ton.

This might be true for industrial mass produced wine. But the principles and practices behind winemaking has not changed much. Years ago a bunch of guys might have stood around twisting a mass of grapes in a cloth, today we use bladder presses. With the “Natural” wine movement and most people becoming sustainable, and much more conscious about "going green” some of the “old techniques” are coming back into favor.

Salute


I was specifically referring to sussreserve. It has largely died out in the last decade plus.

I would attribute such a trend to investments in refrigerated tanks and sterile filtration.
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by David M. Bueker » Fri May 11, 2018 6:16 am

I attribute it to a growing trend towards letting the wines be what they will be. That’s also what the better German winemakers say.
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Victorwine » Fri May 11, 2018 6:41 pm

Back in 2013 Jamie Goode evaluates Gallo's Apothic Red (and IMHO he does a good and fair job in evaluating it).
Basically one could say it is made "true" to style. (I had my first taste of this wine yesterday).

http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/cali ... -red-wines

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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by David M. Bueker » Fri May 11, 2018 8:55 pm

Victorwine wrote:Back in 2013 Jamie Goode evaluates Gallo's Apothic Red (and IMHO he does a good and fair job in evaluating it).
Basically one could say it is made "true" to style. (I had my first taste of this wine yesterday).

http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/cali ... -red-wines

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Except that would be completely misinterpreting what Jamie means by “true.”

See this section from his review: It’s not a reflection of the vineyard. It’s a ‘made’ wine.
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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by Victorwine » Fri May 11, 2018 11:01 pm

Going to the very end of that paragraph-

"I don’t think this is a bad or evil wine. In its style it’s very well made."

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Re: JamieGoode: Our Wines Must Taste True

by David M. Bueker » Fri May 11, 2018 11:23 pm

Which would equate to his “nice.”
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