Is there a blurring of regional wine identities?

I have been reflecting on the taste profile of many red wines from recent vintages (2015 onwards) which I have opened in the last few weeks. We drink wine with dinner nearly every evening and afterwards I usually post a brief TN about the bottle on CT, both public and private, sometimes no more than a cryptic “as before” for 2nd+ tastings of the same wine.

I have now found myself posting more or less the same TN about wines of quite diverse origins, such as Bordeaux left and right banks, Madiran, Cahors, Atlantic leaning Languedoc like Cabardès or Corbières, Douro and even Chile, Tuscan Sangiovese and some riper Loire CabFranc. It goes something like this –

“Medium plus bodied showing generous cherry, plum and blackberry infused fruit some earthiness, good underlying roundness, suave texture offset by discreetly fresh balancing acidity and well covered tannins supporting the finish.”

This is quite a high standard for sometimes quite modestly priced bottles (c.€10). But where are the notes that used to characterise the regions such as such noble greenness in the Médoc and Loire, firm tannic structure in the Médoc, fierce tannins in Madiran, notes of tar in Cahors, Tuscan tangy acidity in Chianti and so on?

No doubt if I were tasting these bottles side by side I would be able to highlight difference better but at a day or three interval apart there is a strong blurring of identities. I don’t find this blurring so much with Burgundy, Beaujolais, N & S Rhône or Barolo/Barbaresco but I might with Rioja were it not for the characteristic mainly American oak treatment there.

I am wondering if greater ripeness of most recent vintages is not ironing out regional and varietal differences as well as a more uniform “international” approach to winemaking and élevage.

I find this less with whites where there seem to remain still quite marked differences between the major grape varieties and regions, especially with Rielsing. Chablis, however, seems to be losing some of its former exhilaratingly steely edge and becoming closer to a Côte d’Or look-alike.

Does this experience ring a bell with other wine-lovers here or is it another symptom of an ageing palate?


PS: Technical - I often get a "General Error" message when trying to logon here and sometimes when moving from one page to another. Also my address bar always shows a "Not secure" message. Is this something to do with logging on from France or something others recognise?

Does this experience ring a bell with other wine-lovers here or is it another symptom of an ageing palate?

No, I think it definitely exists for the reasons you mention. Things definitely converge at the upper end of ripeness, the same way they converge at lower ends. Plus the winemaking things you mention.

PS: Technical - I often get a "General Error" message when trying to logon here and sometimes when moving from one page to another. Also my address bar always shows a "Not secure" message. Is this something to do with logging on from France or something others recognise?

This happens often in the US as well. Not sure why?!

No doubt if I were tasting these bottles side by side I would be able to highlight difference better but at a day or three interval apart there is a strong blurring of identities. I don’t find this blurring so much with Burgundy, Beaujolais, N & S Rhône or Barolo/Barbaresco but I might with Rioja were it not for the characteristic mainly American oak treatment there.

I am wondering if greater ripeness of most recent vintages is not ironing out regional and varietal differences as well as a more uniform “international” approach to winemaking and élevage.

A friend of mine noted some years ago that the most famous regions for growing a particular grape in Europe usually lie at the extreme northernmost extension of its growing range, presumably because under those marginal conditions the stressed vines produce grapes with more character. In his conception, happy vines make uninteresting wine. Certainly, the Syrah of the N Rhone tastes distinctly different -- and better, to my palate at least -- from Syrah grown in the S Rhone or the Languedoc. Likewise, the Mourvedre of Bandol has far more character than the Mataro and Monastrell grown further South.
So, as temperatures rise in Europe, some of that character from stressed vines will be lost. Put another way, the vineyards of Europe start looking more like those of N California in terms of degree-days seen by the vines.

I am not so sure that Beaujolais and the Cote d'Or aren't affected. A Cru Beaujolais from '20 will probably have more red to black cherry fruit and less pomegranate and cranberry, which to me loses some of the essential character of Gamay. Of course, this is begging the question. I have my own expectations based on my 45 years of wine drinking, but who am I to be the arbiter of what Gamay, Syrah or Mourvedre should taste like?

PS: Technical - I often get a "General Error" message when trying to logon here and sometimes when moving from one page to another. Also my address bar always shows a "Not secure" message. Is this something to do with logging on from France or something others recognise?

Same here. It's a phpBB thing. Often, I get a "too many connections" error.

"A friend of mine noted some years ago that the most famous regions for growing a particular grape in Europe usually lie at the extreme northernmost extension of its growing range, presumably because under those marginal conditions the stressed vines produce grapes with more character."

Never thought of it that way before, but the best Chenin Blanc in the Loire seems to me to be from Jasnieres in the northern most reaches of the AOC.

No doubt if I were tasting these bottles side by side I would be able to highlight difference better but at a day or three interval apart there is a strong blurring of identities. I don’t find this blurring so much with Burgundy, Beaujolais, N & S Rhône or Barolo/Barbaresco but I might with Rioja were it not for the characteristic mainly American oak treatment there.

I am wondering if greater ripeness of most recent vintages is not ironing out regional and varietal differences as well as a more uniform “international” approach to winemaking and élevage.

A friend of mine noted some years ago that the most famous regions for growing a particular grape in Europe usually lie at the extreme northernmost extension of its growing range, presumably because under those marginal conditions the stressed vines produce grapes with more character. In his conception, happy vines make uninteresting wine. Certainly, the Syrah of the N Rhone tastes distinctly different -- and better, to my palate at least -- from Syrah grown in the S Rhone or the Languedoc. Likewise, the Mourvedre of Bandol has far more character than the Mataro and Monastrell grown further South.
So, as temperatures rise in Europe, some of that character from stressed vines will be lost. Put another way, the vineyards of Europe start looking more like those of N California in terms of degree-days seen by the vines.

I am not so sure that Beaujolais and the Cote d'Or aren't affected. A Cru Beaujolais from '20 will probably have more red to black cherry fruit and less pomegranate and cranberry, which to me loses some of the essential character of Gamay. Of course, this is begging the question. I have my own expectations based on my 45 years of wine drinking, but who am I to be the arbiter of what Gamay, Syrah or Mourvedre should taste like?

You make some very good points here, Mark.

Some of the wine writers I read in the 60s were then making the point that the greatest wines were being made in marginal areas climatically where the vines have to struggle. That now seems to be borne out by what global warming is doing in those traditionally "great" areas. I often find that, say, Bordeaux grown in the cooler years like 2021 and 2024 taste more like the Bordeaux with which I was brought up than those from warm 18,19,20, 22 and probably 25.

Turning to Burgundy, where the local word for "vineyard" is "climat" and where quality seems very sensitive to plot inclination and altitude, I am wondering whether cult sites like Romanée-Conti and le Chambertin do not risk becoming far too warm. Supreme quality with Pinot Noir could move to sites in the Hautes-Côtes and right out of the region, such as to parts of Germany, where there is a great wine growing tradition and where Spätburgunder seems to be making spectacular progress.

[David M. Bueker]

Climate change is messing with everything. Long time lovers of Loire Cab Franc wondering where the tobacco/pepper notes went. German Riesling fans wondering why Kabinett has 9% ABV rather than 7.5%.

As for the errors, this software has become old and faulty. A small group of us are looking at alternatives.

No doubt if I were tasting these bottles side by side I would be able to highlight difference better but at a day or three interval apart there is a strong blurring of identities. I don’t find this blurring so much with Burgundy, Beaujolais, N & S Rhône or Barolo/Barbaresco but I might with Rioja were it not for the characteristic mainly American oak treatment there.

I am wondering if greater ripeness of most recent vintages is not ironing out regional and varietal differences as well as a more uniform “international” approach to winemaking and élevage.

A friend of mine noted some years ago that the most famous regions for growing a particular grape in Europe usually lie at the extreme northernmost extension of its growing range, presumably because under those marginal conditions the stressed vines produce grapes with more character. In his conception, happy vines make uninteresting wine. Certainly, the Syrah of the N Rhone tastes distinctly different -- and better, to my palate at least -- from Syrah grown in the S Rhone or the Languedoc. Likewise, the Mourvedre of Bandol has far more character than the Mataro and Monastrell grown further South.
So, as temperatures rise in Europe, some of that character from stressed vines will be lost. Put another way, the vineyards of Europe start looking more like those of N California in terms of degree-days seen by the vines.

I am not so sure that Beaujolais and the Cote d'Or aren't affected. A Cru Beaujolais from '20 will probably have more red to black cherry fruit and less pomegranate and cranberry, which to me loses some of the essential character of Gamay. Of course, this is begging the question. I have my own expectations based on my 45 years of wine drinking, but who am I to be the arbiter of what Gamay, Syrah or Mourvedre should taste like?

You make some very good points here, Mark.

Some of the wine writers I read in the 60s were then making the point that the greatest wines were being made in marginal areas climatically where the vines have to struggle. That now seems to be borne out by what global warming is doing in those traditionally "great" areas. I often find that, say, Bordeaux grown in the cooler years like 2021 and 2024 taste more like the Bordeaux with which I was brought up than those from warm 18,19,20, 22 and probably 25.

Turning to Burgundy, where the local word for "vineyard" is "climat" and where quality seems very sensitive to plot inclination and altitude, I am wondering whether cult sites like Romanée-Conti and le Chambertin do not risk becoming far too warm. Supreme quality with Pinot Noir could move to sites in the Hautes-Côtes and right out of the region, such as to parts of Germany, where there is a great wine growing tradition and where Spätburgunder seems to be making spectacular progress.

Spot on, Tim. 2003 gave us a foreshadowing of things to come. Many GC vineyards shut down that year because of drought and excessive heat whereas PC and village-level vineyards often fared better (though TBH I avoided that vintage like the plague). Looking at my Beaujolais purchases, 2014 and 2026 were the last vintages I bought to any extent until 2021. And 2024 might be the last vintage in buy in any quantity since I am ramping down my purchases as I approach my 7th decade of life.

The Spätburgunder of Baden and more recently the M-S-R certainly makes a play for being a source of high quality Pinot Noir, though with its own unique character.