WTN: About as Californicated as it gets (Bodegas Numanthia 2004 Termes)

Dark garnet, lots of toasty oak and some muted floral notes on the nose. Very tight tannins dominate the palate, with plenty of fruit and caramel. Very clean, no real hints of earthiness that I could detect.

Tasted this blind and thought it was a $30-ish California Cabernet, a real points-chaser - pleasant if you enjoy that style. Given that it's actually a Tempranillo-based wine from Spain, I don't think I have ever had a wine that shows less varietal characteristic.

Basically, this is wine-as-chemistry: they have figured out how to make $35 California Cabs for $23 by using Tempranillo and all the "right" flavor components. If that sounds appealing to you, then you'll probably like it.

Basically, this is wine-as-chemistry: they have figured out how to make $35 California Cabs for $23 by using Tempranillo and all the "right" flavor components. If that sounds appealing to you, then you'll probably like it.

Hey, whatcha got against Chemistry?

Mark Lipton

Is that "termes" or "termites" (in the oak?).

-Paul W.

I don't think I have ever had a wine that shows less varietal characteristic.

So what would be characteristic of tempranillo?

I don't think I have ever had a wine that shows less varietal characteristic.

So what would be characteristic of tempranillo?

Victor, if you don't mind, I would like to hear your views on your question also.

-O-

Yeah, tempranillo description would be helpful for me too!

[David M. Bueker]

Tempranillo (like many grapes) does different things based on where it is planted. I won't presume to speak for the wealth of Tempranillo expression, as I am mostly familiar with the classic Rioja and Ribera del Duero versions (my personal choices), but if you think that you can pin a grape down to one style then you are mistaken.

This is much like the California Pinot Noir issue. People complain that Central Coast Pinot doesn't taste like Pinot. Not true. It tastes like Pinot Noir grown somwhere much warmer than Burgundy.

Now certainly the use of oak can dramatically affect grape expression, but that's a question about winemaking, not grape variety.

I certainly did not bring this subject up, nor tempranillo typicity in general. So I guess we're all entitled to read an explanation from the person who originated the thread and questioned the varietal character of this wine...

[Robin Garr]

I certainly did not bring this subject up, nor tempranillo typicity in general. So I guess we're all entitled to read an explanation from the person who originated the thread and questioned the varietal character of this wine...

Victor, I know you're new to online wine forums but the purpose of this one, at least, is to exchange information in a civil environment in an online round table.

Rather than subject your interlocutor to a test, why not provide us your definition? I think this would add a great deal to the discussion and be of benefit to all, rather than turning a discussion into a debate.

... but if you think that you can pin a grape down to one style then you are mistaken.

Not one style. But I do think that, e.g. Pinot, no matter what unspoofulated style it is made in will have some characteristics that make it recognisable as that grape. Is it not the same with Tempranillo? I can talk about "pinosity" with Burgundy, SA, Californian and NZ Pinots. Can I not talk about Tempranillosity with Ribera, Rioja, etc.? Of course in such talk we will inevitably be dealing with huge generalisations. But as I have often said (and found out in practice to be true at least for me), I find generalisations very useful when charting new or little known territory for me. And since I rather like old Riojas (Montecillo GRSE 1982 in the glass just now ) and I want to try other areas with Tempranillo grown, I would find some guidelines into what I can expect, very useful - hence my initial question. With all these caveats, is there anyone who would (forgive the slight thread drift) be willing to share their generalising ideas with me?

-O-

[David M. Bueker]

The issue is that we are defining tempranillo (or Pinot for that matter) by where and how it first came to prominence. (To use a bizarre analogy that's like defining Harrison Ford by Han Solo and then objecting that Indiana Jones is too different and you cannot recognize the Harrison Ford-ness.)

Grapes are planted in many places & will understandably react differently to different soils/climates/etc.

Is the real Tempranillo the one in Rioja or Ribera del Duero or Jumilla? Who can say.

[James Roscoe]

All right David, you have forgotten more about wine than I know, but shouldn't all tempernillo show some general flavor profile? If we take pinot noir for example, almost all well-made pinots exhibit some type of cherry flavors. Depending on where it's planted that cherry profile will be different, but shouldn't all good pinots show that somewhere, along with some earthy-type profile? What is the point if the pinot ends up tasting like a syrah as some California pinots do? Aren't people asking for the underlying general flavor profile in a tempernillo? Or am I missing something as usual.

[David M. Bueker]

If we take pinot noir for example, almost all well-made pinots exhibit some type of cherry flavors.

Really? I've had well made Burgundy with no cherries in sight.

Tempranillo does not have a set of flavors like a neapolitan ice cream. Neither does Pinot.

[James Roscoe]

If we take pinot noir for example, almost all well-made pinots exhibit some type of cherry flavors.

Really? I've had well made Burgundy with no cherries in sight.

Tempranillo does not have a set of flavors like a neapolitan ice cream. Neither does Pinot.

Fair enough! Evidently I need to drink more. (Which was the obvious answer anyway. Every person needs to develop their own profile.)

I have never had a pinot that doesn't have some type of cherry flavor to it. I am drinking cheap stuff though. I guess I need to hang out with you and Charles.

David is correct, and so is Victor in his own lovely way. James isn't that far off either.

While a grape like Pinot Gris usually shows radish, Tempranillo doesn't have a set flavor profile... even within Rioja itself there's a lot of variation. I identify Tempranillo based on the structure, nose, acidity, body, mouthfeel, etc. It's a grape that is easily influenced by terroir, climate, oak, ripeness, blending and "other" techniques.

As much as I love Tempranillo based wines, I cant recall ever tasting Temp-based wine from anywhere and saying “this is a pure expression of Tempranillo.” For me, Allemand’s Cornas Sans Soufe tastes like pure Syrah, or Trimbach CSH as Riesling. When I drink Tempranillo based wines I say things like “this is a great Tondonia” or “classic Vina Real” or “horrendous abomination from the Toro”. I’ve actually read the words of critics who have considered Tempranillo a workhorse, or less noble, grape simply because it lacks a typical nuance. I don’t find Tempranillo so anonymous, but again, it must be identified by other (IMO, more important) characteristics rather than simply strawberries, currents, plums, raspberries, prunes, etc.

It's more important to define what you want.

Best,
Joe

Joe is perfectly right, so I need to add very little.

There are grape varieties that have overwhelming characteristics of their own and tend to be recognizable on almost any terroir. Sauvignon blanc and its 'son' (through a freak cross with cabernet franc), cabernet
sauvignon, are the perfect examples. Pinot noir is not far behind, but I've seen blaufränkisch and even gamay wines confused with PN in blind tastings. Syrah is more debatable - Jancis Robinson calls it "a chameleon grape", pointing to the vastly different profiles of Rhône and Australian syrahs - but does tend to give a few hints in the shape of bacon, violets and/or black olives.

Tempranillo has some basic aromas of its own, basically expansive red berries, which can best be felt in young, uncomplicated, unaged reds and rosés. But otherwise it is even more of a chameleon grape than syrah is, picking up much from the climate and soil conditions, and just as much from the aging agents: the coconut touches in traditional Rioja come from American oak, and the cedary, velvety, 'umami' feel is a combination of prolonged aging (be it in cask or bottle) and of the limestone-rich soils which tempranillo needs to attain top-class level.

Joe, Victor, thank you. This is very much the sort of info I was hoping to learn.

-O-

[James Roscoe]

Thanks to Otto for asking the right questions. This is basically the information I have been looking for in my quest to understand Tempernillo. Great answers David, Joe, and Victor!

Yup, I agree and thanks for all the answers everyone. This is a termendous Open Mike which might possibly outrun my Malbec OM!!! Scary thought.

[David M. Bueker]

Yup, I agree and thanks for all the answers everyone. This is a termendous Open Mike which might possibly outrun my Malbec OM!!! Scary thought.

Perhaps, but this isn't the Open Mike thread.

Yup, I agree and thanks for all the answers everyone. This is a termendous Open Mike which might possibly outrun my Malbec OM!!! Scary thought.

Perhaps, but this isn't the Open Mike thread.

Oh drat!! Suffering from a lack of clean air up here. LOL.