Food and Wine Pairing

I've been disappointed in the quality of the food and wine pairing recommendations I've found on many sites...So I've attempted to build my own. you can find it here:

Food and Wine Pairing

Feedback would be very much appreciated. I'd like to build a great place for our combined knowledge. Thanks!

Very nice Dave. However, I must disagree with your choice for lobster. One night a few years ago we tasted several whites with boiled Maine lobster and the hands down favorite was Vouvray, with Chard a distant second.

I like the design approach. It's a nice start, but you need to add some depth.

Edit: Note that the Salmon window chops the bottom of the text.

Content: You are certainly going to find a lot of strong opinions on this subject, which is dear to my heart. As a great cook and a long time wine collector/drinker, pairing wines is both a challenge and a joy. So...

I think you have so far limited yourself to too narrow a universe of wines for pairing to food. Among your seafood wines, nowhere do I see the classic local wines of Spain, S. France, Italy, Greece or Portugal that are so well-paired to seafood. What about Muscadet and oysters, for example.

Once you hit a main ingredient, preparation will strongly influence to choice of wine. Take duck. There are a lot of preparations. When roasted, an aged Bordeaux is lovely. When the breast, especially Magret, is sauteed and pan roasted, PN and Burgundy are fantastic. When cooked Chinese-style, gewurztraminer or riesling are terrific, as would zinfandel if you want a red. When made into confit and cassoulet, Rhone blends are great. See what I mean?

Also, don't be afraid to present differences of opinion from your own because people do have different taste preferences. For example, many dishes go well with off-dry riesling, but some people do not like the sweet character of riesling. It makes sense to offer these people an alternative.

Anyway, keep up the good work and I hope you mature this into a really valuable repository.

Re lobster pairing. Let me qualify by stating that we don't just dip it in butter; we use a combo of lemon juice and butter that is mostly lemon juice. With this we match SB almost exclusively. Depending on mood and/or availablility a Sancerre or a Kiwi SB are hard to beat.

Cheers, Carl

And here is the proof of Howie's assertion. Lobsters themselves prefer Vouvray:

FWIW - I love Chardonnay with lobster.
Nice design.

Cheers,
Sue

A good effort, but the idea that anyone, no matter how expert or knowledgeable, could codify so precisely (or at all, really) the intricacies of food and wine pairings is, quite frankly, inane.

First, the putting together of foods (dishes, really) and wines is so variable and unpredictable, and even more so when you realize that the combination *you* put together and approve of may be not at all similar to what *someone else* is putting into their mouth and experiencing, that no codification is possible.

Second, even implying that cheeses can be so easily categorized and defined as being "perfectly matched" with any given category of wine is an exercise in futility, for it denies the infinite changeability of both the cheese and the wine. A Vouvray is not a Vouvray is not a Vouvray. A Chardonnay is not a Chardonnay is not a Chardonnay. And even if you could infinitely subcategorize Vouvrays of Chardonnays, you could never sufficiently capture the infinite styles available, for there as many as there are people who make the wines. And so with cheeses: a Cheddar is not a Cheddar is not a cheddar.

No, far better to understand that there are some few relatively reliable and simple guidelines leading you into some basic....very basic....food and wine pairings (Acidity softens acidity, so high acid foods will tend to soften the acidity in high acid wines: relatively predictable response for a majority of folks, and therefore useful in food and wine pairings).

Look at the responses you've already received from a couple of folks on the Lobster and Chardonnay. All depends on the lobster and its preparation and the Chardonnay and its style. One of the safest reccomendations you can give, I think, is to match Lobster with Chardonnay-----if its rich, sweet lobster in a heavy butter sauce, and the Chardonnay is some over-ripe and over-manipulate New World version with lots of oak, malo, and lees contact. Change either the prep or the style of wine, though, and you have an entirely different thing going on, as evidenced by the upping of the lemon (acidity and intensity) to the butter sauce mixture and then matching with the intense, green and acidic Sauvignon Blanc.

Too many infinite variables, Dave. But it's still a fun game to play, sure, and you should continue. But to save your sanity, you might remember to rely on principles (not rules, please, never rules: that's foolish) rather than one to one categorical specificity.

I'd like to build a great place for our combined knowledge. Thanks!

Um, Dave? Isn't THIS place a great place for our combined knowledge?

And when you have a little spare time, could you come over and help me repair my house? Actually, I don't really have a house, just a lot, but you could certainly help be build a house on the lot. And if you have an experienced, licensed contractor friend who can give me lots of free advice, that would be lovely too. I'd like my house to be as fine as it could be.

And you can visit my house when its finished, too.

Nicely designed web site; easy to use and informative at a high level. Clearly, some (if not many/most) of your potential users are less experienced and are looking for a quick answer to a potentially very complicated question. Your recommendations are safe, time-proven, and good overall. A future release of your SW could offer several levels of expert analysis, providing more depth and options for users to explore.

BTW ... here are a few thoughts and pairing options that I like:

Duck served with a red wine reduction sauce pairs quite well with Merlot or Chateauneuf-du-Pape.

BBQ pork with a robust sauce is great with Zinfandel or Australian Shiraz.

Try matching the apple-based dessert with a Late Harvest Chenin Blanc. YUM.

Fresh strawberry shortcake with a chilled Moscato d'Asti is a real pleasure.

I prefer my chocolate desserts with either a Tawny Port or a Banyuls.

Good luck and keep up the good work.

-- Clark

And you can visit my house when its finished, too.

May I also visit?

And you can visit my house when its finished, too.

May I also visit?

Visit? Man, you're gonna be helping to build it!

But yes, there will always be a bed available.

You'll have to bring your own dusty, stingy, old dried out reds though. I'm all out of those at my house.

I have had lobster tonight (four pieces for my wife and I, more than 2 kilos meat), and for me, the best natural match with the halves of lobsters just grilled was Yquem 1986.
A combination to die for.

It is in the same direction as Vouvray. But Yquem adds something.

And you can visit my house when its finished, too.

May I also visit?

Visit? Man, you're gonna be helping to build it!

Hmmm... I can just imagine how I would help. Just remember "blood makes poor mortar".

I wonder how Chablis works in mortar?

Dave,
You will find some interesting combinations in the reports of dinners that I have made.

It is on my blog : http://www.academiedesvinsanciens.org

(copy this address, it is not a link).

[Jenise]

A good effort, but the idea that anyone, no matter how expert or knowledgeable, could codify so precisely (or at all, really) the intricacies of food and wine pairings is, quite frankly, inane.

I wouldn't have used so strong a word as inane because I understand why people want it to be this simple (one food, one wine), but in principal I agree with you completely, Hoke. The only "rule" for food and wine pairing should be: drink the wine you like with the food you like.

Personally, I think the problem of food and wine pairing doesn't need to be fixed, rather it's a set of inifinite possibilities that need to be explored. Over and over. The foods that good cooks put on their tables is increasingly drawn from across the world disapora, and their wine options are just as varied and global.

Let me add that it's time to move beyond the carnivore-driven formula. First of all, not everyone's a carnivore. Second of all, even for those who are the meat's not always the most important or driving thing on the plate. Here's an example: Gary Barlettano paired a sauvignon blanc with his girlfriend Zari's Persian Celery Stew because of the heavy lemon flavor. I followed her recipe yesterday but used less lemon and paired it with a mildly herbaceous Bordeaux because the dish contained a boatload of mint and dill. With good reason we were both happy with our very different choices, and notice: neither of us thought the meat element (beef) important.

There really is no one right way for anything, except cabernet with steak. Oh wait, unless you like syrah better....

Jenise, so you'll know, I did struggle with that word choice quite a bit. Eventually I had to stick with it, even though it is rather harsh.

Trouble is, for someone to decide to go to all that work, and indulge his ego seriously enough to want to post it on a website, and thereby assert that he has a mature and developed knowledge base to attempt to dictate wine and food pairings with such astonishing precision (while at the same time being vague and pointless)...well, I'm sorry if it insults him, but that is just inane. And I couldn't figure out any way to politely soft soap it.

You have more grace and tact than I do, I'm afraid.

Many people have this idea that something as complicated as food and wine pairings can be easily categorized and put into little lifeless boxes, and we know it can't.

When I was much (much) younger, I also sought to create those boxes, telling myself I was simplifying (oversimplifying, of course, in a sophomoric way) something difficult so as to educate and inform people.

I was, of course, deceiving myself. In my ego-driven arrogance, coupled with an honest desire to educate and inform, I was telling people that I knew more than they (when I patently did not) and could tell them the "right way" to do things. I eventually realized, of course, that I knew very little, that I was in the process of learning, that I would always be in the process of learning, and that there was no way I could dictate to other people what they should like and not like, or do and not do.

At that point I resolved to embrace principles or guides, and never rules. I can tell people what often works, and perhaps even give insight into WHY some things work better and some things don't. And that's what I've tried to do ever since.

Trouble is, I continue to see people coming out with the same kind of ego-driven arrogance that I was guilty of, and as I get older and grumpier I have less tolerance for it, and speak out about it.

I'm sure DaveWest is a perfectly nice guy, and have no doubts he is totally well meaning...but there's simply no way of getting around the fact that such things as putting various foods and wines in tiny little boxes is going to help anyone come to a greater understanding of the infinite variables that we are talking about.

Sorry. It's still inane.

And I agree with you fully on the carnivore-driven paradigm (can I use that now that Paul seems to have put it back into public domain? ). So often the meat..or as many folks in the food biz like to refer to it, the protein... is often the LEAST important or significant part of the dish. And that leads us to an interesting way of looking at what's on a plate: chefs often, to the point of putting it on the menu listing, categorize the obligatory side dish as "starch", so it's obvious from their point of view that they are filling in a box, or checking off from a checklist (One Protein--Chicken. Check. One Starch--Potato. Check....)

Somewhat clinical, from a diner's point of view, but worth considering. Does that bring us inevitably to "One Dry Red Wine, Slightly Herbal, Some Berry Flavors. Bordeaux. Check."???

[Jenise]

...but there's simply no way of getting around the fact that such things as putting various foods and wines in tiny little boxes is going to help anyone come to a greater understanding of the infinite variables that we are talking about.

And it's not. But that's probably not the end purpose of the exercise. The end purpose is more a guy thing, a need to be right, and therefore an attempt to take something seemingly mysterious and complicated, wrastle it to the ground, put a rope around it. And then show it off.

But food and wine pairing is not a problem (in spite of the fact that I used the word in the post that you replied to), and it doesn't need to be fixed. So to Dave I would say this: it is instead one great big and wonderful adventure, and the fact that there are a plethora of wine possibilties for every palate and every dining event is what makes it so endlessly fascinating. Your effort is entirely well-meant, we understand that, but they're very very limiting. Put the charts away. Explore. Be open-minded and have fun. There's so much more to discover.

And it's not. But that's probably not the end purpose of the exercise. The end purpose is more a guy thing, a need to be right, and therefore an attempt to take something seemingly mysterious and complicated, wrastle it to the ground, put a rope around it. And then show it off.

Yeah, that guy thing. I think you're right. That butterfly really needs to be securely pinned to the black velvet so you know exactly where it is, right?

So to Dave I would say this: it is instead one great big and wonderful adventure, and the fact that there are a plethora of wine possibilties for every palate and every dining event is what makes it so endlessly fascinating. Your effort is entirely well-meant, we understand that, but they're very very limiting. Put the charts away. Explore. Be open-minded and have fun. There's so much more to discover.

So is this the reflexive female thing? Jenise as Gaia Earth-Mother? Go placidly amidst the noise and haste?

Still, good advice for all of us, I agree. We're simpatico, no doubt; it's just that, as I said, you have more grace and tact.

[Jenise]

So is this the reflexive female thing? Jenise as Gaia Earth-Mother?

Nah, I'm just playing Paula Abdul to your Simon Cowell.

[David M. Bueker]

Well I'm closer to Francois than Dave on the lobstr issue. German Riesling Auslese is my choice.

I've often found that the pairing is mostly dependent on seasoning and sauces, after that is personal taste. Only then come all the traditional rules/guidelines/myths.

Oh and Joe: "The city is made of bricks. The strong make many. The weak make few. The dead make none."

Thanks very much for all of the feedback.

I agree that a simple site can never replace a site like this, personal knowledge, personal preference, and experimentation. That is, after all, the fun!

Having said that, for my own personal pleasure I'm going to keep plugging along developing the site...and all of your feedback (and future feedback) will help make it an even better starting point for novices. (I hope!)

Joe, Somehow I missed your post earlier in the week. Great picture! I'll forward it to my brother and sister in Maine. And that's a '71 Vouvray! How was that? The only one I've ever had one mare than 6 years old was an '89 late harvest dessert.

Cool website, Dave


I'll be passing this along to friends and family.

Nice website Dave! Neat graphics!

I'll would like to add that I always enjoy a Chateauneuf-du-Pape with lamb...especially grilled leg of lamb. I think that is a pretty classic pairing as well.