Zinfandel origins--refresh my memory

[Jenise]

Was talking to a local wine guy last week re my choices for the Italian Varietals, Washington Producers tasting, and he suggested a Maryhill zinfandel. "Why not Primitivo?", he said.

Well, I remember that for a time many of us believed the two were the same grape, then I believe Carol Meredith corrected that and proved that they're cousins, but not the same. Perhaps zin hadn't come from Italy at all, but further east--or am I getting zin mixed up with petite syrah now?

Please someone, help me get the facts right.

Was talking to a local wine guy last week re my choices for the Italian Varietals, Washington Producers tasting, and he suggested a Maryhill zinfandel. "Why not Primitivo?", he said.

Well, I remember that for a time many of us believed the two were the same grape, then I believe Carol Meredith corrected that and proved that they're cousins, but not the same. Perhaps zin hadn't come from Italy at all, but further east--or am I getting zin mixed up with petite syrah now?

Please someone, help me get the facts right.

Croatia.

Jenise, I haven't itme to get lengthy into this subject now, but let me be assure you that Carole's and her co-worker's work has made it absolutely clear that Zinfandel and Primitivo are the same variety, as is Crljenak kasteljansi and Pribidrag/Tribidrag from Croatia. The variety most probably came to the US in a collection of cuttings from the Emperor's nursery in Schönbrunn, Vienna, Austria. The persent day Croatia was then a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

I wonder why these results of her scientifically well based research still have such a hard time to be remebered/accepted.

In case you have any questions, I may elaborate on this subject, for which I have taken a certain interest, later.

Cheers, Anders

[Robin Garr]

Expanding a bit on Thomas's concise response, Jenise, my recollection is that Meredith, working with Croatian researchers, definitely showed (using DNA tracing) that both Zinfandel and Primitivo are the identical grape, and that both were originally the Crlenyak Kasteljanski (sp?) of Croatia.

There's some dispute over historical records that suggest Zin came BACK to Puglia from California much later (late in the 19th century), but the obvious reality that Puglia is directly across the Adriatic a short boat ride away from Croatia makes that seem unlikely.

There's also that pesky factoid that "Kasteljanski" in Croatian means "Castilian," suggesting a Spanish connection. What's <i>that</i> all about.

The long and the short of it, though, is that Zin is Primitivo and Primitivo is Zin, and that's why the US Federales now allow either word's synonymous use on labels from both Italy and the US.

[Jenise]

Was talking to a local wine guy last week re my choices for the Italian Varietals, Washington Producers tasting, and he suggested a Maryhill zinfandel. "Why not Primitivo?", he said.

Well, I remember that for a time many of us believed the two were the same grape, then I believe Carol Meredith corrected that and proved that they're cousins, but not the same. Perhaps zin hadn't come from Italy at all, but further east--or am I getting zin mixed up with petite syrah now?

Please someone, help me get the facts right.

Croatia.

Thanks, Tom.

And zin and primitivo are, or are not, the same grape?

Carole, and her Croatian partners, established pretty convincingly through DNA studies that Zinfandel and Primitivo were the same grape, descended from two other grapes that derived from the Dalmatian region. One route of transmigration took the Dalmatian grape to Apulia in Southern Italy as Primitivo. Another route took what was to become Zinfandel (though it went through a variety of names along the way) from the Dalmatian Coast to California.

The current leaning is that it came through the East Coast, primarily the New York area, by the way, although Haraszthy got initial credit for bringing in cuttings back in the 1800s (that has been largely discredited though).

The progenitor grape for Zinfandel/Primitivo that got all the press was (although the spelling varies wildly) Crljenak Kastelyansky.

Was talking to a local wine guy last week re my choices for the Italian Varietals, Washington Producers tasting, and he suggested a Maryhill zinfandel. "Why not Primitivo?", he said.

Well, I remember that for a time many of us believed the two were the same grape, then I believe Carol Meredith corrected that and proved that they're cousins, but not the same. Perhaps zin hadn't come from Italy at all, but further east--or am I getting zin mixed up with petite syrah now?

Please someone, help me get the facts right.

Croatia.

Thanks, Tom.

And zin and primitivo are, or are not, the same grape?

Zinfandel and Primitivo ARE the same grape, Jenise.

[Jenise]

Thanks, Hoke.

So they ARE the same grape. Thinking out loud--wonder what, then, to expect about the difference between a zinfandel and a primitivo from the same winery (Runquist in Amador is the one I know of). Perhaps higher acidity in the latter?

[Robin Garr]

Thinking out loud--wonder what, then, to expect about the difference between a zinfandel and a primitivo from the same winery (Runquist in Amador is the one I know of). Perhaps higher acidity in the latter?

I wouldn't look for any consistency from one winery to another, Jenise.

The Runquist Website doesn't really help either, but he mentions that the wine labeled Primitivo comes from a separate vineyard planted in Primitivo vines received from Italy. I'm guessing he planted them before Meredith published her findings.

[Robin Garr]

So they ARE the same grape. Thinking out loud--wonder what, then, to expect about the difference between a zinfandel and a primitivo from the same winery (Runquist in Amador is the one I know of). Perhaps higher acidity in the latter?

Erich Russell grows both Zin and Primitivo at Rabbit Ridge. Here's what he wrote me a few years back when I asked this question, again I think before the regulatory changes:

"Enjoyed your coments on Zinfandel vs. Primitivo," he wrote. "We were also very interested in the two varieties. In fact in my first new planting on the westside of Paso Robles in 1997 I planted 20 acres of Zinfandel and 20 acres of Primitivo side by side. My original intention was to blend the two together for Rabbit Ridge Paso Robles Zinfandel.

But regulatory authories in the U.S. Treasury Department wouldn't allow that, he said. "[They] could not decide if they are the same grape - even with the DNA evidence. So when it became time to bottle the first wines we could not blend the two together. We bottled both a Primitivo and a Zinfandel. Since this time Primitivo has become Rabbit Ridge's No. 1 selling wine from Paso Robles."

Despite their identical DNA, he said, the grapes show consistent clonal differences: "In the vineyard the Primitivo clusters are much smaller than Zinfandel, the Primitivo always ripens earlier, the Primitivo gets much riper without the shriveling of berries that Zinfandel gets, and Primitivo always throws a much larger second crop than Zinfandel.

"In the finished wine, Primitivo has an even greater jammy and berry character than Zinfandel, has so much fruit that it stands up better to higher alcohol levels, does not have the raisin character that you sometimes get with high-alcohol zinfandel. I have referred to the difference between the two wines of Rabbit Ridge's as the Primitivo tastes like the Zinfandel on steroids."

So they ARE the same grape. Thinking out loud--wonder what, then, to expect about the difference between a zinfandel and a primitivo from the same winery (Runquist in Amador is the one I know of). Perhaps higher acidity in the latter?

Erich Russell grows both Zin and Primitivo at Rabbit Ridge. Here's what he wrote me a few years back when I asked this question, again I think before the regulatory changes:

"Enjoyed your coments on Zinfandel vs. Primitivo," he wrote. "We were also very interested in the two varieties. In fact in my first new planting on the westside of Paso Robles in 1997 I planted 20 acres of Zinfandel and 20 acres of Primitivo side by side. My original intention was to blend the two together for Rabbit Ridge Paso Robles Zinfandel.

But regulatory authories in the U.S. Treasury Department wouldn't allow that, he said. "[They] could not decide if they are the same grape - even with the DNA evidence. So when it became time to bottle the first wines we could not blend the two together. We bottled both a Primitivo and a Zinfandel. Since this time Primitivo has become Rabbit Ridge's No. 1 selling wine from Paso Robles."

Despite their identical DNA, he said, the grapes show consistent clonal differences: "In the vineyard the Primitivo clusters are much smaller than Zinfandel, the Primitivo always ripens earlier, the Primitivo gets much riper without the shriveling of berries that Zinfandel gets, and Primitivo always throws a much larger second crop than Zinfandel.

"In the finished wine, Primitivo has an even greater jammy and berry character than Zinfandel, has so much fruit that it stands up better to higher alcohol levels, does not have the raisin character that you sometimes get with high-alcohol zinfandel. I have referred to the difference between the two wines of Rabbit Ridge's as the Primitivo tastes like the Zinfandel on steroids."

Ah yes, those clonal differences make all the difference. Complicated thing this grape stuff!

Dr. M. posted the following on this forum's precedessor some time back in 2004:

The Difference between a “Variety” and a “Clone”
Dr. Carole Meredith on WineLoversPage BB

Zinfandel and Primitivo and Crljenak kastelanski are 3 names used for 1 variety. All three are the same variety, just like the synonyms Syrah/Shiraz or Tempranillo/Valdepenas. Although the variety has been in Croatia much longer than in Italy or the United States, Zinfandel is not “descended” from Crljenak in the genetic sense. Zin and Primitivo and Crljenak are all derived by vegetative multiplication (i.e., cuttings and buds) from a single original seedling.

Yes, there are clearly some differences between the vines called Zinfandel that we have been growing in California for 100+ years and those grown in Italy and called Primitivo. But those differences are clonal differences, not varietal differences. They are the same kinds of differences that can be observed between some clones of Syrah or between some clones of Chardonnay.

Here’s my boilerplate explanation of the distinction between clones and varieties:

DNA studies have clarified the distinction between a variety and clone. All vines of all clones of a variety are derived (by asexual propagation, i.e. cuttings and buds) from a single original vine. The single original vine arose as a seedling that was the result of a sexual union between two parent vines, almost always of two different varieties. All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises as a result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual) that occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for new vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation survives to the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The mutations accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each other.

But clonal differences are very very tiny compared to the genetic differences between varieties. The standard DNA markers used to identify grape varieties will produce the same DNA profile for all clones in the variety. It took us years before we finally found any DNA markers at all that would separate any clones of Pinot or Chardonnay, and they only differentiated a few clones. The differences between varieties have their origin in sexual genetic processes (i.e., meiosis and recombination) whereas the differences between clones arise only from asexual processes.

This discussion becomes problematic in the case of Pinot noir, Pinot blanc, Pinot gris and Meunier, however, in that they are all, in fact, clones of a single variety (i.e., they all arose from a single original seedling and all have the same DNA profile) even though wine producers and consumers consider them to be separate varieties because they are so visibly different. The French language deals with this concept better in that all 4 are considered to be the same 'cepage'.
(end of boilerplate)

DNA profiling unambiguously distinguishes between individuals that have originated from separate sexual events.

In humans, this means that DNA profiling can distinguish individual people from each other if they have originated from separate sexual events, but it cannot differentiate identical (i.e., monozygotic) twins.

In grapevines, this means that DNA profiling can distinguish individual varieties from each other (like Chardonnay vs. Melon or Cabernet vs. Merlot) because they originated from separate sexual events, but it cannot differentiate clones within the same variety because they originated from a single sexual event.

Carole Meredith
University of California, Davis (sometimes)

Zinfandel and Primitivo ARE the same grape, Jenise.

As I read it, they are the same variety, they are not the same grape.

In the same way Pinot Noir and Pinot Gris are the same variety.

I wouldn't like to see Primitivo labelled as Zinfandel or vice versa in the same way I'd get a surprise if I bought a bottle of Pinot Gris and it was Pinot Noir

Zinfandel and Primitivo ARE the same grape, Jenise.

As I read it, they are the same variety, they are not the same grape.

In the same way Pinot Noir and Pinot Gris are the same variety.

I wouldn't like to see Primitivo labelled as Zinfandel or vice versa in the same way I'd get a surprise if I bought a bottle of Pinot Gris and it was Pinot Noir

Nail firmly hit on head, Peter...clones are in the same variety, but they have characteristics that separate them from the original grape in the variety.

[Jenise]

As I read it, they are the same variety, they are not the same grape.

In the same way Pinot Noir and Pinot Gris are the same variety.

Perfectly put. This IS why I remembered them as close cousins but not the same. But now I'm reminded why. Thanks, everyone, for your input.