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Rahsaan

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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Rahsaan » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:07 pm

wnissen wrote:I never understood about the French how they had such comparatively bland food with regard to capsaicin, but mustard could be really hot.


Interesting distinctions. I suppose it's all what you grow up with and what you are accustomed to eating. Even Southern French food is not as zesty as Southern Italian, but the full-flavored French cheeses don't exactly qualify as bland. So much nuance!
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Peter May

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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Peter May » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:22 am

I don't find Grey Poupon or any Dijon mustard to be hot.

I bought a pack of assorted Maille mustards in Dijon, and at home a couple of years ago I was given another gifts set of 5 small jars, different flavours - but compared with Colman's English mustard they were all vey mild, flavoursome yes, but no kick.

I like a mustard to be hot, but I want it to get he heat from mustard. If they're going at add chilli or horseradish to it, well I'd rather have a straight chilli or horseradish sauce
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Paul Winalski

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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Paul Winalski » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:27 pm

If you really want pungency, there's mustard oil. It's used in some Indian regional cooking (Kashmir and Bengal mainly, I think). It has high levels of erucic acid, a fatty acid with some toxic properties. For this reason it is banned for edible consumption in the USA, EU, and Canada. Mustard oil sold in the USA must be labeled "for external use only". Rapeseed is another of the Brassicas with high levels of erucic acid. A variety of rape with lower levels of erucic acid in its seeds was bred in Canada and oil from this rapeseed is marked under the name Canola (CANada Oil Low Acid). In Lord Krishna's Cuisine, Yamuna Devi says to always heat mustard oil to the smoke point and then let it cool down to the desired cooking temperature. This breaks down some of the erucic acid, as well as taming some of the pungency.

-Paul W.
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Peter May

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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Peter May » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:46 pm

Paul Winalski wrote: . A variety of rape with lower levels of erucic acid in its seeds was bred in Canada and oil from this rapeseed is marked under the name Canola (CANada Oil Low Acid). .


Thanks Paul: I never knew Canola actually had a meaning. I just thought it was the name used in the America's

There's a lot of fields of the bright yellow rapeseed in the summer around here, and I now use rapeseed oil for roasting. I wondered why I was buying anonymous sunflower oil from Europe when I could buy estate rapeseed oil from a name farm, some have the map co-ordinates of the field.

I was brought up to believe rape seed oil shouldn't be used for cooking because it has an 'off' taste, but I don't get any off flavours.
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Paul Winalski

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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Paul Winalski » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:10 pm

I personally don't like the flavor of rapeseed oil, even canola, and for that reason I don't use it. I don't care for corn oil, either. My go-to cooking oil is peanut oil.

-Paul W.
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Larry Greenly

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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Larry Greenly » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:15 pm

Peter May wrote:I was brought up to believe rape seed oil shouldn't be used for cooking because it has an 'off' taste, but I don't get any off flavours.


Canola oil can have a fishy flavor, depending on its processing and the cooking temperature. Twice in my life I've had fishy flavors with canola oil, once when I popped a pot of popcorn. Yuck. Nothing like fish-flavored popcorn. Might as well have used fish oil capsules. Since then I avoid using canola oil at high heat and use something else.
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Larry Greenly » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:17 pm

Paul Winalski wrote:I personally don't like the flavor of rapeseed oil, even canola, and for that reason I don't use it. I don't care for corn oil, either. My go-to cooking oil is peanut oil.

-Paul W.


I hear you. I use a lot of peanut oil for high-temp cooking, same with avocado oil or grapeseed oil.
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Jeff Grossman

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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Jeff Grossman » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:13 pm

I also get that fishy smell from some vegetable oils. I almost always use grapeseed for frying and olive oil for gentler pan cooking.
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Christina Georgina » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:44 pm

I am a first generation Italian American and the only mustard I knew growing up was dried Colemans from the same tin as currently marketed.. It was mixed with water to make a "plaster " for cough, cold, fever, whatever !
I didn't start using mustard for cooking until my husband bought me the Larousse Gastronomique Encyclopedia early in our marriage and I became a devoted cookbook reader.
Now at any given time I have at least 4 different mustards on the fridge door to easily catch my eye for inspiration. Brands do change over time and definitely as they age.
Mamma Mia !
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Larry Greenly » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:58 pm

Jeff Grossman wrote:I also get that fishy smell from some vegetable oils. I almost always use grapeseed for frying and olive oil for gentler pan cooking.


With me, it's usually peanut oil or avocado oil for high heat. I like to use olive oil when scrambling eggs. FWIW, there are plenty of discussions about fishy smells regarding canola oil on the internet.
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Rahsaan » Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:47 pm

Larry Greenly wrote:I like to use olive oil when scrambling eggs.


Interesting. I mostly cook with olive oil, except when going in an Asian direction. But for eggs it's always butter, seems like a much more luscious marriage.
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Larry Greenly » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:03 pm

Rahsaan wrote:
Larry Greenly wrote:I like to use olive oil when scrambling eggs.


Interesting. I mostly cook with olive oil, except when going in an Asian direction. But for eggs it's always butter, seems like a much more luscious marriage.


Butter is 20% water and the water has to boil off before the 80% oil portion can come up to a temperature of 350F-400F temperature to convert the water in the eggs into steam and make the scrambled eggs rise. Olive oil (et al) doesn't have water and comes up to temperature faster to make the steam sooner, which leads to fluffier eggs. You can certainly add the butter at the end. :mrgreen:
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Rahsaan » Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:23 pm

Larry Greenly wrote:
Rahsaan wrote:
Larry Greenly wrote:I like to use olive oil when scrambling eggs.


Interesting. I mostly cook with olive oil, except when going in an Asian direction. But for eggs it's always butter, seems like a much more luscious marriage.


Butter is 20% water and the water has to boil off before the 80% oil portion can come up to a temperature of 350F-400F temperature to convert the water in the eggs into steam and make the scrambled eggs rise. Olive oil (et al) doesn't have water and comes up to temperature faster to make the steam sooner, which leads to fluffier eggs. You can certainly add the butter at the end. :mrgreen:


Also interesting! But why does it help to steam faster? I was actually saying that I prefer the taste of butter and eggs for all preps (scrambled, fried, omelette), but for scrambled eggs I get them fluffy by cooking extremely slowly over very low heat.
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Larry Greenly » Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:36 pm

Rahsaan wrote:
Larry Greenly wrote:
Rahsaan wrote:
Larry Greenly wrote:I like to use olive oil when scrambling eggs.


Interesting. I mostly cook with olive oil, except when going in an Asian direction. But for eggs it's always butter, seems like a much more luscious marriage.


Butter is 20% water and the water has to boil off before the 80% oil portion can come up to a temperature of 350F-400F temperature to convert the water in the eggs into steam and make the scrambled eggs rise. Olive oil (et al) doesn't have water and comes up to temperature faster to make the steam sooner, which leads to fluffier eggs. You can certainly add the butter at the end. :mrgreen:


Also interesting! But why does it help to steam faster? I was actually saying that I prefer the taste of butter and eggs for all preps (scrambled, fried, omelette), but for scrambled eggs I get them fluffy by cooking extremely slowly over very low heat.


The bit I gave about the chemistry of using butter vs olive oil is most likely for scrambled eggs cooked the usual way (in a couple of minutes, not long and slow). But there are, as you know, many ways to cook scrambled eggs. I, too, sometimes use a long and slow recipe for fluffy eggs. Only, in my case, I don't use any sort of oil or butter--just a couple of Tbs of water in a variation of French-style eggs at the beginning and end. stirring constantly for about 13 minutes. They come out so fluffy and creamy, people think there's cream in them.

My philosophy is whatever works for you. And I think I'll make some scrambled eggs for breakfast. :D
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by wnissen » Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:53 pm

Larry Greenly wrote:The bit I gave about the chemistry of using butter vs olive oil is most likely for scrambled eggs cooked the usual way (in a couple of minutes, not long and slow). But there are, as you know, many ways to cook scrambled eggs. I, too, sometimes use a long and slow recipe for fluffy eggs. Only, in my case, I don't use any sort of oil or butter--just a couple of Tbs of water in a variation of French-style eggs at the beginning and end. stirring constantly for about 13 minutes. They come out so fluffy and creamy, people think there's cream in them.

My philosophy is whatever works for you. And I think I'll make some scrambled eggs for breakfast. :D

On those rare occasions when I'm out of butter and milk I will make eggs with water only but it's not as rich. Fluffy, yes, I do the low-and-slow followed by highest heat (originally learned from Alton Brown) and it produces towering curds even with water alone. I don't get the temperatures in your description, though. Egg curdles well below the boiling temperature of water (as anyone who has ever scrambled a custard despite a double boiler can attest) so why does it have to get so hot? Is there an emulsion of the water in the butter?
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Larry Greenly » Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:56 pm

wnissen wrote:
Larry Greenly wrote:The bit I gave about the chemistry of using butter vs olive oil is most likely for scrambled eggs cooked the usual way (in a couple of minutes, not long and slow). But there are, as you know, many ways to cook scrambled eggs. I, too, sometimes use a long and slow recipe for fluffy eggs. Only, in my case, I don't use any sort of oil or butter--just a couple of Tbs of water in a variation of French-style eggs at the beginning and end. stirring constantly for about 13 minutes. They come out so fluffy and creamy, people think there's cream in them.

My philosophy is whatever works for you. And I think I'll make some scrambled eggs for breakfast. :D

On those rare occasions when I'm out of butter and milk I will make eggs with water only but it's not as rich. Fluffy, yes, I do the low-and-slow followed by highest heat (originally learned from Alton Brown) and it produces towering curds even with water alone. I don't get the temperatures in your description, though. Egg curdles well below the boiling temperature of water (as anyone who has ever scrambled a custard despite a double boiler can attest) so why does it have to get so hot? Is there an emulsion of the water in the butter?


I don't understand your question. Which technique are you referring to regarding curdling?
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Rahsaan » Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:50 pm

Larry Greenly wrote:My philosophy is whatever works for you. And I think I'll make some scrambled eggs for breakfast. :D


As with many things gustatory, that works!
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Larry Greenly » Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:02 pm

This morning I decided to make scrambled eggs, bacon, and jonnycakes. I was out of my coconut oil spray, so I grabbed a spare cooking spray can from under the sink. As soon as I sprayed my hot griddle, I got a face full of strong fish smell. I looked at the can I used. Sure enough, it was canola oil spray. :roll: Peanut oil was used for the subsequent batches.
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Jenise » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:43 pm

Good point, and I guess the same applies to English mustard. Talk about bland food. I guess in some ways it was the only avenue for heat if heat appealed to you. Tabasco sauce etc. on American tables probably isn't much different.
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by wnissen » Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:30 pm

Larry Greenly wrote:I don't understand your question. Which technique are you referring to regarding curdling?


I'm referring to this statement:
Larry Greenly wrote:Butter is 20% water and the water has to boil off before the 80% oil portion can come up to a temperature of 350F-400F temperature to convert the water in the eggs into steam and make the scrambled eggs rise.

I'm having trouble understanding why the butter needs to get to 350-400ºF / 175-200ºC in order to get the eggs to fluff. The water and proteins in the eggs should be steamed and fully cooked at 212ºF / 100ºC, so, why does the butter need to get so hot? Couldn't the water steam after the eggs are technically cooked? Not trying to be difficult, just not understanding the sequence here.

I admit I don't really understand the chemistry of scrambled eggs. It does seem to help to bring the eggs up almost to cooking temperature over a 30-minute period (any longer and it starts to crust). Then turn the heat up as high as it will go, wait 15 seconds, and start scraping and flipping the cooked portion. Remove from heat as soon as all the liquid is gone and the rest will just finish cooking without browning as long as you keep flipping occasionally. Using this method I can get 8 eggs into maybe 3 masses with almost inconveniently large curds. You would think it wouldn't matter if you heated them quickly to cooking temperature and then went to town, but it does.

I did consult "On Food and Cooking" and he doesn't exactly address this issue. He says whole egg sets around 165ºF/75ºC, and custard a bit warmer than that. He also says that low heat and patience are the key to scrambled eggs, but in my skim I couldn't find anything beyond that about butter melting at a specific temperature.
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Larry Greenly » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:26 pm

FWIW, I don't have a pony in this race. I cook scrambled eggs a number of ways, such as this morning: low and slow. I'm merely relaying cooking tidbits I've learned over the years.

There are a number of sites on the internet that discuss olive oil, but I'll let Christopher Kimball do the talking for me: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=446516116021111
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Bill Spohn

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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Bill Spohn » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:27 pm

Jenise wrote:Mustard we go there?


I've been pretty good lately about restraining any pun-ishment tendencies but your example of Dijon-vu may lead me astray. I think I have mustard the will to pun again! Once I get going it may take you awhile to ketchup with me.
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Jeff Grossman » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:22 pm

Mayonnaise-sume you'll start right away?
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Re: When Condiments Betray You

by Jenise » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:39 pm

Jeff, it will take a Miracle Whip to stop him.
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