Dishwasher safe?

Has anyone ever had stainless steel utensils actually begin to rust from being washed in a dishwasher? If so, had you discovered the cause? A chemical in dishwashing soap, perhaps? The make-up of the water (ours is on a Culligan filtering system)?

Thomas,

My stainless steel began to get tarnish spots/corrosion that I can't remove. I am pretty sure it's not from the dishwasher, but from salt or acid from the food left on the untensils before they are washed. For instance, I will use a knife to spread salted butter on my toast in the morning, not rinse it off, and throw it in the dishwasher where it will sit for 15 hrs until the dishwasher is run.

Many of my butter knives are damaged because of this...with unsightly spots...I have tried everything to get rid of them. My Mother always washes all her stainless steel before she puts it in the dishwasher...uses the same detergent and dishwasher as myself, and has no problems with her cutlery, so I am pretty sure it's the food that's causing my corrosion.

Thomas,

My stainless steel began to get tarnish spots/corrosion that I can't remove. I am pretty sure it's not from the dishwasher, but from salt or acid from the food left on the untensils before they are washed. For instance, I will use a knife to spread salted butter on my toast in the morning, not rinse it off, and throw it in the dishwasher where it will sit for 15 hrs until the dishwasher is run.

Many of my butter knives are damaged because of this...with unsightly spots...I have tried everything to get rid of them. My Mother always washes all her stainless steel before she puts it in the dishwasher...uses the same detergent and dishwasher as myself, and has no problems with her cutlery, so I am pretty sure it's the food that's causing my corrosion.

Thanks Maria,

We don't use salt much, but I guess it could very well be other corrosive things like food acidity...or maybe natural sodium in foods.

But curiously, the inside of the dishwasher is stainless steel, and it has a few of those spots on it...don't know what that means, but I'm certainly not going to take the door off, and wash it before I run a cycle

From Libbey's "tips on handling glassware, flatware and china"

Corrosion
Corrosion in flatware occurs when chlorides in food soils dissolve and attack silver plating and stainless steel, permanently damaging their surfaces. Corrosion can result from several factors- the use of improper containers and compounds used for cleaning and storage, dirty presoak solutions, extra-long presoak times, and incorrect washing and drying procedures. Water and cleaning solutions can break down the flatware's protective oxide layer, and extended exposure to moisture increases the risk of rust. Tableware should never remain soiled overnight. Presoaking is recommended, after which it should be immediately washed in high temperatures- low temperatures or chlorine baths will attack silver and metal. To prevent corrosion and film build-up, flatware must be rinsed thoroughly and dried immediately after rinsing.
Tarnishing and buildups
To keep flatware looking new, a regular detarnishing and burnishing schedule must be established. In silver plated flatware, silver sulfide deposits can cause surface discolorations. In stainless steel, buildup of foreign material such as food soils or hard water deposits can cause a black, blue, or grey discoloration.

From Libbey's "tips on handling glassware, flatware and china"

Corrosion
Corrosion in flatware occurs when chlorides in food soils dissolve and attack silver plating and stainless steel, permanently damaging their surfaces. Corrosion can result from several factors- the use of improper containers and compounds used for cleaning and storage, dirty presoak solutions, extra-long presoak times, and incorrect washing and drying procedures. Water and cleaning solutions can break down the flatware's protective oxide layer, and extended exposure to moisture increases the risk of rust. Tableware should never remain soiled overnight. Presoaking is recommended, after which it should be immediately washed in high temperatures- low temperatures or chlorine baths will attack silver and metal. To prevent corrosion and film build-up, flatware must be rinsed thoroughly and dried immediately after rinsing.
Tarnishing and buildups
To keep flatware looking new, a regular detarnishing and burnishing schedule must be established. In silver plated flatware, silver sulfide deposits can cause surface discolorations. In stainless steel, buildup of foreign material such as food soils or hard water deposits can cause a black, blue, or grey discoloration.

Thanks John. That answers it.

Now I'm wondering, other than the most obvious, what other benefit is there to using a dishwasher?

We switched from blue box Cascade to green box Cascade and everything improved from glass, to crystal, to stainless.

We switched from blue box Cascade to green box Cascade and everything improved from glass, to crystal, to stainless.

Carl,

Do you know what is the difference between them? I use a non-chlorine/non-phosphate tablet called Ecover.

I'll have to check on that. Origionally made the switch by accident. Then all of a sudden things came out of the dishwasher without spots on them.

Thomas, I did a bit of work with a client years ago who was an expert in detergents. He made a couple of basic points. First, water varies significantly from place to place. Second, different detergents will act very differently with different waters.

As a result, it's very important to try a number of detergents -- an excellent short cut is to talk with neighbors who share your own water supply and see what they use.

And, even more basic, make the water as hot as possible -- the chemical reactions will work better no matter what detergent you use.

He also agreed with Consumer Reports on the importance of finding detergents that contain enzymes [warning -- he was responsible for making enzymes in a plant we had in Mexico]:

"Among the 27 detergents we tested this time, there was a wide range of scores. All the products judged very good or excellent overall contain enzymes. Many gels, some of them brand names, were merely fair. (See our Ratings.) Note: You won't see the word "enzymes" trumpeted on packages. If it's there at all, it will be listed with the ingredients or mentioned in the cautions section of the packaging.

"Green" products can get dishes clean. Most dishwasher detergents contain phosphates, which enhance cleaning ability. Phosphates also have a reputation for being environmentally harmful because they promote the growth of algae. But four enzyme-containing, phosphate-free detergents--Ecover tablets and powder; Trader Joe's powder; and Method Dish Cubes tablets--were very good to excellent in overall quality."


There are other parameters, of course: septic systems, environmental considerations, liquid vs. solid detergents, manufacturer suggestions, etc. that may affect your decision.

Liquid Green Cascade is the choice in our micro-area of Dogwood Trail.

A related solution. I was watching a program that featured unusual fixes for various problems.

One that caught my attention was how to clean the inside of a dishwasher: use a packet of lemon Kool Aid in the detergent dispenser and run a cycle with the DW empty.

Thomas, I did a bit of work with a client years ago who was an expert in detergents. He made a couple of basic points. First, water varies significantly from place to place. Second, different detergents will act very differently with different waters.

As a result, it's very important to try a number of detergents -- an excellent short cut is to talk with neighbors who share your own water supply and see what they use.

And, even more basic, make the water as hot as possible -- the chemical reactions will work better no matter what detergent you use.

He also agreed with Consumer Reports on the importance of finding detergents that contain enzymes [warning -- he was responsible for making enzymes in a plant we had in Mexico]:

"Among the 27 detergents we tested this time, there was a wide range of scores. All the products judged very good or excellent overall contain enzymes. Many gels, some of them brand names, were merely fair. (See our Ratings.) Note: You won't see the word "enzymes" trumpeted on packages. If it's there at all, it will be listed with the ingredients or mentioned in the cautions section of the packaging.

"Green" products can get dishes clean. Most dishwasher detergents contain phosphates, which enhance cleaning ability. Phosphates also have a reputation for being environmentally harmful because they promote the growth of algae. But four enzyme-containing, phosphate-free detergents--Ecover tablets and powder; Trader Joe's powder; and Method Dish Cubes tablets--were very good to excellent in overall quality."


There are other parameters, of course: septic systems, environmental considerations, liquid vs. solid detergents, manufacturer suggestions, etc. that may affect your decision.

Liquid Green Cascade is the choice in our micro-area of Dogwood Trail.

Bob,

Being rural, we are on our own water system--it's called a drilled well, and no two wells deliver the exact water around here. Plus, my water is filtered because of high mineral and sulfur compounds, not to mention I once received a wonderful dose of amoebic dysentery from drinking bad water and a dose of giardia something or other for drinking a separate but equally bad water...

I'm sure the filtering system has something to do with the chemical imbalance causing the corrosion--the system uses sodium to remove the chlorine that it uses to remove any of those amoebas and giardias.

But, you give me hope. One of the detergents that your source mentions does very well one that I use: Ecover.

We have the same situation here, Thomas. The well levels are quite different door to door -- 60 to 130 feet -- and lots of variations in water.

We are looking into mineral filters at the moment. What do you use?

We have the same situation here, Thomas. The well levels are quite different door to door -- 60 to 130 feet -- and lots of variations in water.

We are looking into mineral filters at the moment. What do you use?

It's a Culligan system. One filter, one chlorinator, one salt box to reverse the chlorination.

For water to drink, we have a reverse osmosis filter under the sink into a separate faucet.

Thanks. We are installing a filter to remove iron; the reverse osmosis filter sounds like a good idea for drinking water. What brand do you like?

Thanks. We are installing a filter to remove iron; the reverse osmosis filter sounds like a good idea for drinking water. What brand do you like?

It's part of the Culligan system, Bob.

"Stainless steel" is kind of misleading. A lot depends on the grade. High quality utensils will probably use 304 or 316 stainless. Lower quality applications will use 430. Try attaching a magnet to various parts of the utensil. Lesser grade stainless will adhere.

Even the best grade of stainless will rust or corrode under the right conditions. In any case, since its pretty thin, it can abrade off in areas where something leans against it continuously and vibrates. Also, stainless is susceptible to continous acid environments. So change dishwasher soaps if you are using a "lemon fresh" variety.

Richard

....In any case, since its pretty thin, it can abrade off in areas where something leans against it continuously and vibrates....

I left out a sentence there. I was speaking of the chromium oxide layer on the outer surface of stainless. It is what makes it "stainless"...or sort of stainless anyway.

Richard

Thanks Richard. And thanks, too, for giving me a use for my wine magnet

Thomas,

Much like the others... I always pretty much clean my silverware (stainless) before dishwashing. I had some low-end stainless at one time that really started going bad - from my college days when I wasn't as inclined to clean stuff right away... and this caused the finish to become bad (although I don't remember any actual rust - just seemed the stainless finish wasn't as nice anymore - no longer shiny). Other kitchen utensils and such that I bought at the time did rust... poorly stainless steeled or chromed (some sort of finish over the regular metal). Again, mainly due to my lack of quick rinsing off.

[Please note: Not implying anything about your methodology or utensils... just commenting on my experience (and making fun of myself)]

I have since done a better job of getting the stuff cleaned off before allowing it to sit in the dishwasher (since I live alone, it can be days and days between washings). But, occasionally I will run the rinse cycle after having some guests over... when I get some dishes- just not full enough to run it. Seems to help.

And, I do use Ecover and Seventh Generation dishwashing powders/gels as I am on septic system (but do have town water). I also like Ecover's rinse aid - almost no scent like the name brands.

Thanks,

Mike

Thomas,

Much like the others... I always pretty much clean my silverware (stainless) before dishwashing. I had some low-end stainless at one time that really started going bad - from my college days when I wasn't as inclined to clean stuff right away... and this caused the finish to become bad (although I don't remember any actual rust - just seemed the stainless finish wasn't as nice anymore - no longer shiny). Other kitchen utensils and such that I bought at the time did rust... poorly stainless steeled or chromed (some sort of finish over the regular metal). Again, mainly due to my lack of quick rinsing off.

[Please note: Not implying anything about your methodology or utensils... just commenting on my experience (and making fun of myself)]

I have since done a better job of getting the stuff cleaned off before allowing it to sit in the dishwasher (since I live alone, it can be days and days between washings). But, occasionally I will run the rinse cycle after having some guests over... when I get some dishes- just not full enough to run it. Seems to help.

And, I do use Ecover and Seventh Generation dishwashing powders/gels as I am on septic system (but do have town water). I also like Ecover's rinse aid - almost no scent like the name brands.

Thanks,

Mike

I keep telling my wife there are reasons behind my inability to get excited about cleaning things...now I have documentation!!!

My kitchenaid knives began to get those tarnish spots almost immediately upon dishwasher use. We are forced to wash them by hand and do not know the cause.